Dine and Dash

[justalayman]

I'm sorry ldij but I will never accept that it is anything less than theft no matter how much they were ignored if they walk out without attempting to pay. That means the server nor the business is to blame when somebody steals from them. It may be seen as poor service and deserves a bad review on yelp! but I don't see it as sharing culpability.


I guess somebody could use the same excuse if they stole something from your purse. If ldij was paying attention nothing would have been stolen. Does that really make any sense?

or maybe something more common:

you take out your wallet to pay a cashier for a purchase. You drop a $100 bill on the floor but didn't realize it. The kid behind you saw it and realized you don't seem to realize it. He quietly waits until you walk away and picks up your $100 bill and puts it into his pocket without saying a word to anybody. Now using your reasoning its your fault the kid took your money. You tell me; do you really believe that?

 

[LdiJ]

I'm sorry ldij but I will never accept that it is anything less than theft no matter how much they were ignored if they walk out without attempting to pay. That means the server nor the business is to blame when somebody steals from them. It may be seen as poor service and deserves a bad review on yelp! but I don't see it as sharing culpability.

Then you are not understanding me and that is ok. You haven't owned a restaurant nor worked as a server so you would have a different perspective. Generally, I consider it management's fault most of the time for overworking servers, but it can also be the fault of a bad server.

I guess somebody could use the same excuse if they stole something from your purse. If ldij was paying attention nothing would have been stolen. Does that really make any sense?

Not the same thing at all.

or maybe something more common:

you take out your wallet to pay a cashier for a purchase. You drop a $100 bill on the floor but didn't realize it. The kid behind you saw it and realized you don't seem to realize it. He quietly waits until you walk away and picks up your $100 bill and puts it into his pocket without saying a word to anybody. Now using your reasoning its your fault the kid took your money. You tell me; do you really believe that?

Actually yes, I do. In that scenario it would be me being careless with my money. Now, do I agree that it was morally wrong for the kid behind me to take and keep the money? Absolutely. However, that does not mean that it wasn't my own carelessness that caused me to lose it. It also doesn't me that I would have ever gotten it back if that particular kid did NOT pick it up.

 

[Just Blue]

I understand the points you are making, but I disagree on the issue that someone must be drunk to not realize that they haven't paid. They can also be so engrossed in conversation or each other.

Yes, the right thing to do if you stand up to try to get someone's attention is to go to the counter to pay, but that doesn't mean that management or the server isn't at least partially to blame for the fact that the customer was neglected enough to get away with walking out.

I'm sorry...That is one of the most absurd things I have ever read. Unless one has some kind of cognitive issue one does not "forget" to pay the tab.

 

[Just Blue]

Then you are not understanding me and that is ok. You haven't owned a restaurant nor worked as a server so you would have a different perspective. Generally, I consider it management's fault most of the time for overworking servers, but it can also be the fault of a bad server.



Not the same thing at all.



Actually yes, I do. In that scenario it would be me being careless with my money. Now, do I agree that it was morally wrong for the kid behind me to take and keep the money? Absolutely. However, that does not mean that it wasn't my own carelessness that caused me to lose it. It also doesn't me that I would have ever gotten it back if that particular kid did NOT pick it up.

Until I read this...oy!

 

[justalayman]

Then you are not understanding me and that is ok. You haven't owned a restaurant nor worked as a server so you would have a different perspective. Generally, I consider it management's fault most of the time for overworking servers, but it can also be the fault of a bad server.



Not the same thing at all.



Actually yes, I do. In that scenario it would be me being careless with my money. Now, do I agree that it was morally wrong for the kid behind me to take and keep the money? Absolutely. However, that does not mean that it wasn't my own carelessness that caused me to lose it. It also doesn't me that I would have ever gotten it back if that particular kid did NOT pick it up.

Do you realize that you have just said theft is ok with you? The kid picking up your dropped money is committing a crime yet you seem to be ok with that.

I sure hope you don’t ever forget where you parked your car. From your statements it would be ok if somebody took it because you were careless and forgot where you put it.

Even a careless person doesn’t deserve to have anything stolen from them.

And the scenario with the purse is essentially the same as the restaurant but I figured you would argue that point. A person that steals because the opportunity to do so is there and not get caught is still theft. You not paying attention to your purse is no different than a server not being able to watch the patrons 100% of the time. Neither excuses somebody stealing

 

[quincy]

Also, while I don't think Q is implying otherwise, just for clarity I want to make sure the OP understands the police will take no notice of an improper pay docking, even if it is related to the theft of services. For that you...or rather, your wife - you have no standing to take any action...would need to contact the TWC. Which may or may not decide to address the issue.

Right. I did not try to imply that the the server has a criminal action against the employer.

I think it is a poor policy for the employer to have, unless there is a history of wait staff providing free meals to friends or family. Then it might be understandable.

LdiJ's comments do not conform to the law.

 

[Just Blue]

Right. I did not try to imply that the the server has an action against the employer.

I think it is a poor policy for the employer to have, unless there is a history of wait staff providing free meals to friends or family. Then it might be understandable.

LdiJ's comments do not conform to the law.

They seldom do these days.

 

[quincy]

They seldom do these days.

I have noticed that. It is frustrating and troubling.

 

[LdiJ]

Right. I did not try to imply that the the server has an action against the employer.

I think it is a poor policy for the employer to have, unless there is a history of wait staff providing free meals to friends or family. Then it might be understandable.

LdiJ's comments do not conform to the law.

My comments were not intended to conform to the law. My comments were intended to reflect the practical reality of running a restaurant.

And JAL do NOT say that I said it was OK to steal, because I specifically said that it was wrong to steal. You deliberately tried to confuse that issue because it didn't conform to your narrow opinion.

If I drop a hundred dollar bill and nobody picks it up, then its 100% my fault that I lost it. If I drop a hundred dollar bill and it gets kicked around and found a day later by someone its still 100% my fault. If someone picks it up who saw me drop it then its still partially my fault for being careless. People need to accept their own partial responsibility for the things that go wrong in their lives or they will turn into the kind of person who believes that everything bad that happens in their life is someone else's fault...and that is not reality.

 

[quincy]

My comments were not intended to conform to the law. My comments were intended to reflect the practical reality of running a restaurant.

And JAL do NOT say that I said it was OK to steal, because I specifically said that it was wrong to steal. You deliberately tried to confuse that issue because it didn't conform to your narrow opinion.

If I drop a hundred dollar bill and nobody picks it up, then its 100% my fault that I lost it. If I drop a hundred dollar bill and it gets kicked around and found a day later by someone its still 100% my fault. If someone picks it up who saw me drop it then its still partially my fault for being careless. People need to accept their own partial responsibility for the things that go wrong in their lives or they will turn into the kind of person who believes that everything bad that happens in their life is someone else's fault...and that is not reality.

Again, if you drop a $100 bill and someone finds it and does not turn that $100 over to you or the proper authorities, they have stolen $100.

Here is a link to the Texas law that covers "dine and dash" (see Section 13.04, Theft of Service):

https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/DOCS/PE/htm/PE.31.htm

 

[justalayman]

My comments were not intended to conform to the law. My comments were intended to reflect the practical reality of running a restaurant.

And JAL do NOT say that I said it was OK to steal, because I specifically said that it was wrong to steal. You deliberately tried to confuse that issue because it didn't conform to your narrow opinion.

If I drop a hundred dollar bill and nobody picks it up, then its 100% my fault that I lost it. If I drop a hundred dollar bill and it gets kicked around and found a day later by someone its still 100% my fault. If someone picks it up who saw me drop it then its still partially my fault for being careless. People need to accept their own partial responsibility for the things that go wrong in their lives or they will turn into the kind of person who believes that everything bad that happens in their life is someone else's fault...and that is not reality.

Well, your statement did put blame on the server and store which meant it relieves the thief of guilt. The fact is; nothing the store or server could have done relieves the thief from all guilt here. There is no partial responsibility on the part of the store or server. It’s the guy who walked out without paying plain and simple.

And you’re 100% wrong about the $100 bill issue. Just because you didn’t realize you dropped it doesn’t mean it belongs to whomever picks it up. Both morally and legally it still belongs to whomever dropped it.

While your very specific words may say it’s wrong to steal, every explanation of the situation you have provided says it’s ok to steal.

 

[not2cleverRed]

My comments were not intended to conform to the law. My comments were intended to reflect the practical reality of running a restaurant.

And JAL do NOT say that I said it was OK to steal, because I specifically said that it was wrong to steal. You deliberately tried to confuse that issue because it didn't conform to your narrow opinion.

If I drop a hundred dollar bill and nobody picks it up, then its 100% my fault that I lost it. If I drop a hundred dollar bill and it gets kicked around and found a day later by someone its still 100% my fault. If someone picks it up who saw me drop it then its still partially my fault for being careless. People need to accept their own partial responsibility for the things that go wrong in their lives or they will turn into the kind of person who believes that everything bad that happens in their life is someone else's fault...and that is not reality.

An odd attitude on a Legal Advice forum.

And by the way, stiffing the workers doesn't sound like a "practical" way of running a restaurant. It seems like a very good way to end up with lousy unmotivated workers. One can even take it to the logical extreme of paying people to dine and dash often enough to not have to pay the wait staff at all.

 

[HRZ]

Back to the question posed....I'm not so sure that the Texas payday law would permit employer to dock pay or tip pool absent prior written acknowledgement of such a policy if that is what OP is questioning...even if the dock did not take pay below minimum wage.

 

[quincy]

Do you have a link to the law that might support that, HRZ? If you read what Shadowbunny provided, it can be possible for an employer to dock pay.

Here is a link I located to what can be deducted under the Texas payday law:

http://www.twc.state.tx.us/news/efte/deductions_from_pay.html

 

[justalayman]

Do you have a link to the law that might support that, HRZ? If you read what Shadowbunny provided, it can be possible for an employer to dock pay.

Here is a link to what can be deducted under the Texas payday law:

http://www.twc.state.tx.us/news/Efteling/deduction_problems_under_tpl.html

http://www.twc.state.tx.us/jobseekers/texas-payday-law#deductionsFromWages


The employer may not make deductions unless:

• Ordered to do so by a court of competent jurisdiction, such as in court-ordered child support payments
• Authorized to do so by state or federal law, such as IRS withholding
• Authorized in writing by the employee, and then only for a lawful purpose (authorizations may not be too general or too broad)

So it appears hrz’s statement would be correct, at least from the site I quoted.