Law Enforcement

[Legion90]

The same psych company DQ me three times even though I was hired as a cop by two other departments. Can I sue them?
I was former law enforcement who was hired by the Los Angeles Police Department and Union city PD. I had no issues being a cop in LAPD. I actually received numerous commendations and awards. At union city, I was let go because a brand new first time Field Training Officer thought I wasnt a good fit when I was a week away from being done with field training. They told me that I wasnt a good fit, and released me from employment, but I wasnt terminated.
I applied to a few other departments for employment. I just received a letter from San Francisco Sheriff Department who told me that Law Enforcement Psychological Services, incorporated has deemed that I was not suitable to be a Deputy Sheriff working jails, hospitals, and courts. This psychology company is also the same company that DQ me from San Francisco PD and Santa Clara Sheriff Corrections before I passed Psych and was hired by LAPD and UCPD. Most departments in the Bay Area use Law Enforcement Psychological Services, Incorporated, and I feel like Im pretty much black listed for employment with any department that uses them.
Is there anything I can do about this?

 

[CdwJava]

Here's a clue: Being released from employment on probation IS being terminated. It's simply not a termination with cause.

Also, a "brand new, first time Field Training Officer" is not the guy who will have the final say in your being retained or not. There was a consensus among at least some of the FTOs and the Training Sergeant and command for that to happen - especially so late in the process. It is very possible for a person to be a good cop and still a poor fit for an agency. And being a poor fit is a valid reason to let you go on probation.

Ultimately, there's nothing you can really do except to apply to other agencies that may not use the same service (and let me tell you, that there are a great many that do not). However, the fact you have been disqualified by a number of agencies will raise red flags and could result in your being a non-select with new agencies with very little research done as to why. Sure, it may not be fair, but agencies tend to get nervous when they see an applicant DQ'd by multiple agencies.

All I can suggest is that you may want to let a little time pass and then seek to apply at some of the smaller agencies maybe outside the Bay Area. Maybe try and get on as a reserve somewhere. Keep in mind that a background will find the information as to your performance with LAPD (and, perhaps, why you left) as well as everything with UCPD.

Good luck.

(By the way, I conducted hiring and pre-employment backgrounds for years)

 

[Legion90]

Here's a clue: Being released from employment on probation IS being terminated. It's simply not a termination with cause.

Also, a "brand new, first time Field Training Officer" is not the guy who will have the final say in your being retained or not. There was a consensus among at least some of the FTOs and the Training Sergeant and command for that to happen - especially so late in the process. It is very possible for a person to be a good cop and still a poor fit for an agency. And being a poor fit is a valid reason to let you go on probation.

Ultimately, there's nothing you can really do except to apply to other agencies that may not use the same service (and let me tell you, that there are a great many that do not). However, the fact you have been disqualified by a number of agencies will raise red flags and could result in your being a non-select with new agencies with very little research done as to why. Sure, it may not be fair, but agencies tend to get nervous when they see an applicant DQ'd by multiple agencies.

All I can suggest is that you may want to let a little time pass and then seek to apply at some of the smaller agencies maybe outside the Bay Area. Maybe try and get on as a reserve somewhere. Keep in mind that a background will find the information as to your performance with LAPD (and, perhaps, why you left) as well as everything with UCPD.

Good luck.

(By the way, I conducted hiring and pre-employment backgrounds for years)

Thank you for the advice. Yes I totally get what you mean and I have nothing to hide since everything is documented. I left LAPD on good terms (received numerous commendations) but I left for family reasons.

Per Union City, the captain gave me a letter stating that I was not terminated, and didn’t need to put down that I was terminated on future applications. That is the confusing part because they’re telling me one thing, while other depts will perceive it as something else, but i get what you mean. It’s still a termination since I’m no longer working there.

It does suck pretty bad that most Bay Area depts use this psych company to determine everything, so no matter what, I’m screwed.

Guess policing is really not the same everywhere as the saying goes.

 

[CdwJava]

Typically, if an agency works to preserve your viability, they will allow you to resign rather than to be let go. If you did not resign, and were, instead, let go, that's terminated by any real definition.

Psych evaluations are not universal - and neither are the parameters set by agencies for these exams. An agency in a large rural county might have a desire for a different psych profile than a agency police agency in a small, affluent area. An officer from Oakland PD may not be a good fit for Carmel PD simply because of their experiences. That may have been part of the issue with Union City. I went from a large agency to a medium one to a small one, and the move to the small one was a REAL paradigm shift.

There are a number of smaller agencies in the valley that have a harder time recruiting qualified officers and may be a little more flexible with prior background DQs. If you have the capability to move, you might consider looking at some of those, or looking into Reserve officer programs in the Bay Area. Agencies might be less resistant to trying out reserves than full time officers.

One good thing is that the reason for the psych DQ is not available to another agency. In fact, the previous employing agency should not even have a copy of the evaluation, only a letter noting whether or not you are acceptable for employment or not.

 

[Legion90]

Typically, if an agency works to preserve your viability, they will allow you to resign rather than to be let go. If you did not resign, and were, instead, let go, that's terminated by any real definition.

Psych evaluations are not universal - and neither are the parameters set by agencies for these exams. An agency in a large rural county might have a desire for a different psych profile than a agency police agency in a small, affluent area. An officer from Oakland PD may not be a good fit for Carmel PD simply because of their experiences. That may have been part of the issue with Union City. I went from a large agency to a medium one to a small one, and the move to the small one was a REAL paradigm shift.

There are a number of smaller agencies in the valley that have a harder time recruiting qualified officers and may be a little more flexible with prior background DQs. If you have the capability to move, you might consider looking at some of those, or looking into Reserve officer programs in the Bay Area. Agencies might be less resistant to trying out reserves than full time officers.

One good thing is that the reason for the psych DQ is not available to another agency. In fact, the previous employing agency should not even have a copy of the evaluation, only a letter noting whether or not you are acceptable for employment or not.

Union city gave me the option of whether resigning or have them released me from probation. If I had resigned, I would’ve not been eligible for unemployment.

I’m in the process of trying to go back to LAPD. Hopefully they won’t get mad that I left and is trying to come back.

Yeah going from LAPD and working in South Central LA to Union City was an eye opener. It was like two worlds a part. I just wish that most medium to smaller depts have their own psych that determines if someone is a good fit for their dept or not.

 

[CdwJava]

Union city gave me the option of whether resigning or have them released me from probation. If I had resigned, I would’ve not been eligible for unemployment.

Not the best call for background purposes, but I understand it.

I’m in the process of trying to go back to LAPD. Hopefully they won’t get mad that I left and is trying to come back.

Hopefully they can look past the recent DQs.

Yeah going from LAPD and working in South Central LA to Union City was an eye opener. It was like two worlds a part. I just wish that most medium to smaller depts have their own psych that determines if someone is a good fit for their dept or not.

Many establish parameters with a psych evaluation firm. Each agency can set their own parameters even if they have the same provider. Or, they can choose to adopt the default standard by which the firm is comfortable operating. Sometimes there is not much wiggle room.

I know of agencies that used to use independent psychs and they got some really skewed results. The psych for one inland coastal agency had a bad habit of DQing 3 out of 4 applicants (that was a lot of wasted money in backgrounds) and they changed psychs as a result. The larger firms can provide a little more peace of mind.

In my early days, I was DQ'd by 2 agencies for psych ... only to be re-evaluated at the agencies request and receive job offers from both (which I turned down because someone else beat me to it).

 

[Legion90]

Not the best call for background purposes, but I understand it.


Hopefully they can look past the recent DQs.


Many establish parameters with a psych evaluation firm. Each agency can set their own parameters even if they have the same provider. Or, they can choose to adopt the default standard by which the firm is comfortable operating. Sometimes there is not much wiggle room.

I know of agencies that used to use independent psychs and they got some really skewed results. The psych for one inland coastal agency had a bad habit of DQing 3 out of 4 applicants (that was a lot of wasted money in backgrounds) and they changed psychs as a result. The larger firms can provide a little more peace of mind.

In my early days, I was DQ'd by 2 agencies for psych ... only to be re-evaluated at the agencies request and receive job offers from both (which I turned down because someone else beat me to it).

Just to clarify, ever since union city, I was only DQ by one department and it was a sheriff’s department for psych. Just wanted to clarify so that it doesn’t look like I was DQ by numerous agencies since union city lol.

Yeah, I filed an appeal, paid $900 out of my pockets for a second opinion review when this psych company DQ me the first first time around. The second opinion said it was find, so that dept forwarded the results back to this psych company. Only to have them DQ the second finding and rejected my appeal.

 

[CdwJava]

But, you said you were DQ'd by SFPD and SCCC ... or was one before the other?

If the only post-UC DQ was SFPD, don'[t feel bad ... most of the agencies in the state think them a bit ... uh ... peculiar, anyway. In many ways - particular in their administration.

Psych appeals tend to be a lost cause. Agencies will often err on the side of caution in any event.

 

[Legion90]

But, you said you were DQ'd by SFPD and SCCC ... or was one before the other?

If the only post-UC DQ was SFPD, don'[t feel bad ... most of the agencies in the state think them a bit ... uh ... peculiar, anyway. In many ways - particular in their administration.

Psych appeals tend to be a lost cause. Agencies will often err on the side of caution in any event.

My apologizes if I wasn’t cleared with my post. I was DQ from psych from the same psych company before I was hired on by LAPD and UCPD. SFPD was the first time, and Santa Clara County Corrections was the second time (they never gave me an answer, I just never heard back after I took their psych). But I didn’t bother to find out since lapd picked me up, I just assumed I was DQ.

POST UC was with SF Sheriff (the department that doesn’t do patrol) and that was why I was a little shocked and taken back, and because my Background investigator spoke to me before and said there was nothing worth DQing in my Backgrounds. But I guess he has no control over psych.

But that’s life right? It is what it is, we can only move forward and not backward.

 

[CdwJava]

You could well have just died on the vine (i.e. on the list) rather than being DQ'd. If you got to the background, got a conditional letter, and went on to the psych and did not pass, they should have sent a DQ letter at that point.

Correct, the background investigator and the administration in general, have no influence with the psych exam. If you get to the psych, you've passed everything to that point and they intend to hire you as evidenced by the conditional offer of employment that is required prior. I have been surprised by DQs a few times.

 

[Legion90]

I think I’m just more surprised that I was deemed not suitable to work in jails, hospitals, and courts when I showed that I had no issues working the streets of LA and Union City. It’s like, did they just not factor that I was a cop and just went off their old finding on me? Who knows.

Did you ever get frustrated at that? It’s like, you were the one who felt like an applicant was a good fit for your dept, along with everyone else, and out of nowhere, this civilian who has never been cop deemed that your applicant was not good enough to be a cop.

How does that even make sense? Just like when civilians are on the police commission and oversight, but I won’t get into that.

 

[CdwJava]

My psych DQs were both prior to my first job. Since then, I have had no fails.

I don't have anb issue with doctors or psychs conducting evals because their knowledge is specialized. A civilian review board can be a different animal entirely because they may be political in nature and are often staffed by people who have no legal or law enforcement experience or knowledge, and in many places having no such exposure is a requirement (unless on the3 receiving end). Those can be instances of evaluations being conducted by people with little to no knowledge of the law or police work, pswych and medical evals are not the same thing.

So, no, I was never frustrated at the fact that a non-cop was doing the eval, only at the psych himself or the results (NOT for the fact he was a non-cop).

 

[Legion90]

I get what you mean. We will see how everything goes with LAPD. If not then I might look out of state, maybe Vegas, NV or Houston,Texas.

I know what type of dept I want to work for and I think it’s safe to say that most of the departments in the Bay Area are not my type of policing. I’ll definitely try to adjust my style of policing, but it’s hard when I was exposed to LAPD’s style first.

Regardless, thank you for taking the time to read my post and responding back to me. And thank you for not being a dick about it either. I really appreciate that.

 

[CdwJava]

You're welcome. And, good luck.

I worked for an agency that prided itself on being able to give officers with a bump in their history a second chance. We had a great track record of rehabbing careers, and many smaller agencies follow the same sort of model. Others, not so much. Small agencies can be an interesting animal.

 

[Legion90]

I PM’d you to make it easier