The 8th Amendments vs The 1st Amendment

[jcwashington]

What is the name of your state? NJ

Is there a precedent that a religion can violate someones 8th amendment rights despite the first amendment says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"? My case is regarding Jehovah's Witnesses and other religions who exhibit draconian punishments on their members where persons families shun them cruelly for indefinite periods of time. My question is can an "organization" or a "religion" that punishes its members and exmembers be held accountable for being exceedingly cruel with the punishment it deals out.

 

[Shadowbunny]

What is the name of your state? NJ

Is there a precedent that a religion can violate someones 8th amendment rights despite the first amendment says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"? My case is regarding Jehovah's Witnesses and other religions who exhibit draconian punishments on their members where persons families shun them cruelly for indefinite periods of time. My question is can an "organization" or a "religion" that punishes its members and exmembers be held accountable for being exceedingly cruel with the punishment it deals out.

No. As long as the "punishment" isn't breaking any laws (physical torture, for example), then government can not (and SHOULD not) get involved.

 

[justalayman]

The amendments you ask about are limitations on the government, not any private entity.

 

[xylene]

No.

Jehovah's Witness isn't the government under the 8th amendment.

I suggest you talk to a therapist and work with people who have experience as 'ex-faith' members (of all creeds)

You can't make people want to interact with you or stop them from withholding love. BUT If these punishments rise to the level of a crime or a civil tort you coud sue or get a restraining order. These would be things like harrassment, threats, keeping property, defamation, or things that could rise to a criminal conspiracy.

 

[Taxing Matters]

What is the name of your state? NJ

Is there a precedent that a religion can violate someones 8th amendment rights despite the first amendment says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"?

The Eighth Amendment reads: "Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted." Those are all limitations on the government. It is not possible for a religious organization to violate the Eighth Amendment because religious organizations are private groups, not government agencies.

Moreover, the First Amendment is also a limitation only on government, as it expressly states that "Congress shall make no law...." As a result, is also not possible for a religious organization to violate your First Amendment rights to freedom of religion, speech, assembly, or press.

The practice of some religions of shunning ex-members of their faith or persons outside their faith is not illegal. Each member of that religion has the right to make the choice of whether to participate in the shunning of the ex-members/non members. The religion cannot force them to participate (other than to kick them out too) and the ex members/non members cannot force the members of the religion to interact with them.

My question is can an "organization" or a "religion" that punishes its members and exmembers be held accountable for being exceedingly cruel with the punishment it deals out.

Although a religious group cannot violate the Eighth Amendment, it certainly can run afoul of federal and state laws that bar certain acts. If the religion were to physically beat up members who violate its rules, destroy property of members, engage in actions like illegal harassment of members, imprison or kidnap members, etc., those things of course are all crimes for which the participants may be prosecuted and in addition many of those things give rise to civil claims for damages, too. Shunning people, however, does not violate any federal or state law.

 

[quincy]

... Shunning people, however, does not violate any federal or state law.

The history of the case of Amish bishop Sam Mullet Sr. can be instructive:

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/2823240/Beard-Cutting-Appeal.pdf

 

[Litigator22]

What is the name of your state? NJ

Is there a precedent that a religion can violate someones 8th amendment rights despite the first amendment says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"? My case is regarding Jehovah's Witnesses and other religions who exhibit draconian punishments on their members where persons families shun them cruelly for indefinite periods of time. My question is can an "organization" or a "religion" that punishes its members and exmembers be held accountable for being exceedingly cruel with the punishment it deals out.

So what? Mankind invented religion as an excuse to murder their neighbors!

 

[Taxing Matters]

The history of the case of Amish bishop Sam Mullet Sr. can be instructive:

A good find. Had they left it at the shunning they'd have been ok. But when the shunning didn't work, they resorted to violence. No surprise that lead to prosecution. A great example of what we've been talking about here.

 

[quincy]

So what? Mankind invented religion as an excuse to murder their neighbors!

That certainly is the view of some. There are many examples of religious differences spawning hate crimes.

 

[Taxing Matters]

So what? Mankind invented religion as an excuse to murder their neighbors!

It wasn't why (at least most) religions were created. But there is no doubt that some followers of various religions have invoked their religion to justify violence against others.

 

[quincy]

One issue with the Jehovah Witness practice of shunning members (who divorce, who marry outside the faith, who smoke, who go to or send their children to college ...) that is not often talked about is the high rate of suicide among those in the membership who were shunned or "disfellowshipped."

A year ago, a Jehovah Witness in Michigan who had been shunned by her JW community killed her family and herself, with friends linking the murder-suicide to shunning. This was not an incident unique to the Michigan family - as was made clear in the news coverage that followed the killings.

Here, just because, is the 1987 appellate decision out of the 9th Circuit, Janice Paul v. Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc., 819 F2d 875: https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/F2/819/875/245063/