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California Mandatory Health Ins Law

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Taxing Matters

Overtaxed Member
Massachusetts has had a health care mandate and penalty since 2007...this isn't new.
Romney Care. The fact that MA passed it with a Republican governnor and that it was in many ways like Obamacare was one of the arguments that Democrats made for why Republicans should have supported the Obamacare bill. Of course, that argument didn't persuade any Republicans.
 


Taxing Matters

Overtaxed Member
I was hoping that this mandate should go along the lines of Pot and the EPA Car standards that the Fed supersedes California's laws.
Just because the federal government has a law relating to some topic does not automatically mean that the federal law preempts any state laws on the same subject. In order for there to be state law preemption one of two conditions must exist: (1) the federal law itself expressly states that it preempts all state law on the subject or (2) a court determines that the federal law is so comprehensive on the matter that it completely shuts out any meaningful role for the states. Neither of those situations exist here.
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
Ours is expensive and getting more expensive every year. The so-called Affordable Care Act was what compelled me to remain working even after I retired - I just couldn't afford health insurance! So, I may have to keep working until I hit Medicare.

And, as a note for the uninformed (at least in California) the vast majority of public employees do NOT get any medical coverage in retirement. AND, most full career public employees are not eligible for Social Security or Medicare because they were outside of the Social Security and Medicare systems. I am fortunate that I worked enough quarters in the private sector, and in a public job that paid into SS and Medicare that I am eligible in several years, but I know a great many who are not. People who started their careers in public service when they were young are ineligible.
 

ajkroy

Member
Carl, are you certain about the Medicare part? As a public employee myself, I am fully aware that I am no longer paying into SS (but I did for years as a employee of the private sector). However, Medicare is supposed to be for all employees/spouses of employees who work ten years and are 65 or disabled.

The more people who pay into the public pool of money for insurance is what brings the cost down. By eliminating the federal penalty, it created a disincentive for healthy people to keep health insurance. If only sick people get insurance, then the premiums go up for everyone, because the costs go up.

Eventually, we will go to a single-payer system like the rest of the civilized world and not have to worry about any of this stuff. The amount that the average family would save, and the country as a whole, would be astronomical.
 

Taxing Matters

Overtaxed Member
Eventually, we will go to a single-payer system like the rest of the civilized world and not have to worry about any of this stuff. The amount that the average family would save, and the country as a whole, would be astronomical.
The devil is in the details. It is not automatic that we would save money or that we would get better care. Our government agencies tend not to be well managed and there is the possibility that the medical care that most who are on private insurance now would get under a government run program would actually be worse. Done well we could get at least good care for less. My concern is that it is quite possible it would not be done well.
 

ajkroy

Member
The devil is in the details. It is not automatic that we would save money or that we would get better care. Our government agencies tend not to be well managed and there is the possibility that the medical care that most who are on private insurance now would get under a government run program would actually be worse. Done well we could get at least good care for less. My concern is that it is quite possible it would not be done well.
Medicare is the largest insurance network in the world. It rarely has complaints and most people who are on it do not have any problems with it. I didn't comment on the care, though I think that would improve from the current status because providers would not have to jump through the ridiculous hoops that insurance has them do. Nearly everyone would save money, particularly employers. The public employees who have their health insurance taken from tax money would mean property tax savings for most homeowners. We would save on auto insurance because we would no longer need health insurance payment coverage. Prescriptions would be exponentially cheaper. People wouldn't wait until the last minute and actually get preventative care, which is significantly cheaper than treating diseases. The bigwigs at the insurance companies wouldn't get multi-million dollar salaries/bonuses annually.

I could go on and on.
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
Carl, are you certain about the Medicare part? As a public employee myself, I am fully aware that I am no longer paying into SS (but I did for years as a employee of the private sector). However, Medicare is supposed to be for all employees/spouses of employees who work ten years and are 65 or disabled.
Those not paying into it can buy into it. The info is also on their web page.

The more people who pay into the public pool of money for insurance is what brings the cost down. By eliminating the federal penalty, it created a disincentive for healthy people to keep health insurance. If only sick people get insurance, then the premiums go up for everyone, because the costs go up.
So, the only solution is to take money at the point of a sword?

Eventually, we will go to a single-payer system like the rest of the civilized world and not have to worry about any of this stuff. The amount that the average family would save, and the country as a whole, would be astronomical.
Save? You mean after the nearly doubling of the personal and corporate income taxes coupled with the disruption in the economy that would occur when/if so many people were put out of work and investors lost their money or received less than an optimal return on their investments? Not to mention the well-known efficiency of government bureaucracies at providing services to the people. :unsure:
 

ajkroy

Member
Those not paying into it can buy into it. The info is also on their web page.


So, the only solution is to take money at the point of a sword?


Save? You mean after the nearly doubling of the personal and corporate income taxes coupled with the disruption in the economy that would occur when/if so many people were put out of work and investors lost their money or received less than an optimal return on their investments? Not to mention the well-known efficiency of government bureaucracies at providing services to the people. :unsure:
Just for my school, the health insurance premium is almost $1M per month. 75% of that comes directly from the property tax of the taxpayers in the surrounding towns. As a school, we have no corporate tax. If you are saying that we couldn't find a better use for that $9M per year, I think we are too far apart ideologically.

And we are only one school in one state. Corporations with significantly larger numbers of employees would see even larger savings.
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
Just for my school, the health insurance premium is almost $1M per month. 75% of that comes directly from the property tax of the taxpayers in the surrounding towns. As a school, we have no corporate tax. If you are saying that we couldn't find a better use for that $9M per year, I think we are too far apart ideologically.

And we are only one school in one state. Corporations with significantly larger numbers of employees would see even larger savings.
Read the estimates of the costs of a single payer plan then get back to me.
 

Eekamouse

Senior Member
I can't afford health insurance and I think it's reprehensible that California is going to punish me for not being able to afford it.
 

Taxing Matters

Overtaxed Member
Just for my school, the health insurance premium is almost $1M per month. 75% of that comes directly from the property tax of the taxpayers in the surrounding towns. As a school, we have no corporate tax. If you are saying that we couldn't find a better use for that $9M per year, I think we are too far apart ideologically.
But while Medicare for all would shift the burden for health care cost from the school to the federal government, that shift is not free. Local property taxes might go down but federal taxes would go up. In the end, the issue is whether the extra federal taxes paid to get the Medicare for all would be more or less than the health care premiums that employers and individual employees now pay and what kind of health care we would get for that compared to the health care we get with private insurance. Again, it is not automatic that Medicare for all would be a great solution. The details matter.

Corporations with significantly larger numbers of employees would see even larger savings.
Which might not benefit the employees, but rather the shareholders. If the employer doesn't have to pay for health insurance any more but employee pay remains the same and employee taxes go up, then those employees are worse off. That's just one example of those pesky details that I keep mentioning.
 

PayrollHRGuy

Senior Member
Just for my school, the health insurance premium is almost $1M per month. 75% of that comes directly from the property tax of the taxpayers in the surrounding towns. As a school, we have no corporate tax. If you are saying that we couldn't find a better use for that $9M per year, I think we are too far apart ideologically.

And we are only one school in one state. Corporations with significantly larger numbers of employees would see even larger savings.
What makes you think for a second that the $1Mil per month (plus some) the school pays now to an insurance carrier isn't going to have to be paid to the feds if there is Medicare for all.
 

ajkroy

Member
What makes you think for a second that the $1Mil per month (plus some) the school pays now to an insurance carrier isn't going to have to be paid to the feds if there is Medicare for all.
Because an enormous expense is the overhead costs of running such an insurance company. The CEO of BCBS of Michigan makes over $19M https://www.freep.com/story/money/business/2019/03/08/ceo-blue-cross-blue-shield-michigan/3071484002/. That is only one executive of one insurance company in one state.

I chair a multi-million dollar healthcare trust. We are currently self-funded, but when we were full-service, our annual overage was roughly $3M. That means that the cost of the claims paid were significantly less than the amount of the premiums collected.

I have worked in healthcare in the US and in Canada, so I have seen the good and bad of both types of programs. I have been teaching in healthcare in the US for nearly two decades, focusing primarily on insurance and reimbursement. And I hold a Masters in Healthcare Administration.

This isn't political and I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, but from a sheer numbers perspective, it is an easy choice. When you add in the additional stress that is removed from healthcare staff to not have to worry about all of the issues brought about by insurers, or worrying because a patient requires a treatment that isn't covered, or the patient is uninsured or underinsured, or knowing that the patient you are treating is rationing their insulin because they cannot afford it...not to mention an overall healthier populace because of access to medical care, I don't understand why anyone would choose anything else.
 

PayrollHRGuy

Senior Member
Then why is it that several doctors I know are perfectly happy to accept BCBC and most other insurance but flatly refuse to accept Medicare and Medicaid.
 

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