Question regarding parking in front of a "driveway curb cut" when there is no actual driveway

[quincy]

Seriously, what is your problem? one of those locations is where I got the citation.

One picture shows no parking signs, one shows no parking on one side of the street, and one picture appears to show a curb cutout and there’s a decorative gate that potentially could open for a car. There is a sign in one of the photos that says it’s private property and vehicles will be towed.

What exactly are you trying to show with the photos?

 

[Zigner]

Seriously, what is your problem? one of those locations is where I got the citation.

All three of those locations are driveways. You deserved the ticket.

 

[PayrollHRGuy]

Here are three examples of locations in question:

This first one is a clearly defined wall across the sidewalk from the parking location in question.
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7821462,-122.4590011,3a,75y,267.61h,76.72t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1smvP2Ks7FxjMmRoMYUNlk2Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
The area where the dumpster is located in the street view shot is where the curb cut begins and there is clearly a wall across the sidewalk from the cut location. Often cars park here and are occasionally ticketed.

This second example is a little less clear. The business at that location changed the function of the building via Change of Use permits. Those permits specified the modifications to the area behind the doors to one that would not support "an off-street area for accommodating vehicles" with the building of raised floors that do not support the weight of vehicles, installation of electrical wiring, etc.
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7816222,-122.4510783,3a,15y,106.01h,83.14t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sD8RdLEYnlCS5JAVZmoAlIQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Often cars parked here are ticketed.

This third one is where a friend of mine was ticketed last year. He was parked well left of the garage in no way even coming close to blocking access, but was still given a ticket for blocking the driveway:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/80+Thor+Ave,+San+Francisco,+CA+94131/@37.7349305,-122.434188,3a,75y,130.22h,71.06t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4r_0a75_0zr1W7Ll7TjStg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!4m5!3m4!1s0x808f7e64bb953453:0x33cba2a0ed980b12!8m2!3d37.7349022!4d-122.4343756

None of those three show signs of not being actual garage doors. Which one is the one YOU were ticketed for?

 

[adjusterjack]

Seriously, what is your problem? one of those locations is where I got the citation.

Here's my problem. You wrote that they were "examples." You did not specify that one of the "examples" was where you got cited and you still haven't. Whichever one is the one where you got cited is the only one that is relevant.

So, which one is it?

 

[jeffreyt2000]

A

Here's my problem. You wrote that they were "examples." You did not specify that one of the "examples" was where you got cited and you still haven't. Whichever one is the one where you got cited is the only one that is relevant.

So, which one is it?

My original question was a higher level question that was basically:
1. Given the definition of a driveway per the California Streets And Highways code (SHC) Division 7, Part 3, Chapter 27, Article 1, Section 5870 which clearly states: "“Driveway” means a paved portion of a public street providing an unobstructed passage from the roadway to an offstreet area used for driving, servicing, parking, or otherwise accommodating motor vehicles."
2. And the area in question does not lead to an "offstreet area used for ... accommodating motor vehicles" because there is a wall, fence, or repurposed area where no vehicles can enter (even if curb cuts exist).
3. then the location in question is not blocking a "driveway" per CA state definition of a driveway.
4. So should a ticket not be issued or can it be legitimately argued against based on those facts?

A picture should not be required to answer that question since I was not asking for advice in fighting my specific ticket but was asking a higher level question based on the CA state legal definition of a "driveway" and the current state of the location. But since you kept asking, I provided 3 pictures of areas where either I or a friend of mine has received a ticket in the past 2 years. Now you are saying that is not good enough for some reason, so I will provide more details and re-insert the links.

Picture 1 - the area from where the dumpster is sitting (and the curb cut starts) is about 18 feet long before the actual garage entrance begins. This is where my ticket was issued, if you must know, but knowing that does not really address my original higher level question. My car was parked under the tree with the back of my car being about 6 feet from the beginning of the garage entrance. Across the sidewalk from where my entire car was parked is all wall and window with no access to the garage provided that I was blocking. So in no way was my car obstructing passage to an offstreet area. And the only "no Parking" signs are for street cleaning on certain days - this was not one of those days.
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7821462,-122.4590011,3a,75y,267.61h,76.72t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1smvP2Ks7FxjMmRoMYUNlk2Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Picture 2 - a friend received a ticket here. The building use was changed in 2016 - the building permits were issued and the work completed per the permits to change the area from a garage bay to a different use that prevents vehicles from entering. It has a raised floor (per the building permits), fixed equipment, electrical wiring, etc that all prevent it from being an off-street area for vehicles. The official No Parking signs or for street cleaning days. The "No Parking" signs on the side of the building/doors are not official city No Parking signs and were put there by the business manager to encourage people not to park there so they can use it as their private parking. There are often cars parked here, in fact I drove by on Friday afternoon and the entire length of the sidewalk had cars parked there.
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7816222,-122.4510783,3a,15y,106.01h,83.14t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sD8RdLEYnlCS5JAVZmoAlIQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Picture 3 - where another friend received a ticket about 2 years ago - the green fence across from the left hand curb cut and the next 12 feet is a permanent fence with a standard 3 ft gate in it. My friend was parked extending past the curb cut by about 4 or 5 feet, clearly in friend of the fence and a good 6 feet from the driveway. Like my 1st example, he was not blocking a passage for a vehicle. The No Parking sign was not there at that time, it was installed a short time later to help relieve congestion on the street from parking on both sides and the ticket issued was for blocking a driveway.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/@37.7349305,-122.434188,3a,75y,130.22h,71.06t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4r_0a75_0zr1W7Ll7TjStg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!4m5!3m4!1s0x808f7e64bb953453:0x33cba2a0ed980b12!8m2!3d37.7349022!4d-122.4343756

While I am not sure how providing these pictures will help answer my original question, but I gladly provide them. So if you have some expertise in this area of legality and can comment on the legal standing based on the definitions provided by the CA Vehicle codes, I would greatly appreciate it. If you want more specific detail of my specific ticket, I don't know what else you need to answer my original question.

Thank you

 

[quincy]

There is a sign that says, “private property” and the private property appears to extend to where you say you parked your vehicle. It would not be the curb cut that is the issue but rather the fact that you parked in a tow-away zone.

 

[jeffreyt2000]

Were there “No Parking” signs on the street?

Was the curb cut to accommodate what once was a garage entrance, with the garage converted to living or retail space?

The pictures are confusing.

per the current vehicle codes, I believe qhT matters is what the current use of the property is as defined by building codes and permitted construction. If the other sidewalk is a solid wall that was built per issued construction and change-of-use permits, does it really matter if 100 years ago there was a garage there?

I don't think the pictures are confusing. All three locations are areas where a curb cut exists but the specific location in question only leads to a fixed object (wall, fence, etc.) that will not accommodate a vehicle. So my belief is that per CA Vehicl codes, these locations are not "driveways" since they do not allowfor passage to an off-street area for vehicles.

 

[jeffreyt2000]

One picture shows no parking signs, one shows no parking on one side of the street, and one picture appears to show a curb cutout and there’s a decorative gate that potentially could open for a car. There is a sign in one of the photos that says it’s private property and vehicles will be towed.

What exactly are you trying to show with the photos?

Not sure which pictures you are referring to with each comment since all three streets have no parking signs. That said, the original question is about driveways, not no parking violations so not sure why the no parking signs matter to the original topic. that said ...

The first picture has no parking signs for street cleaning on specific mornings. This was not one of those mornings.

The second picture has street cleaning No Parking (again, not one of those days) and No Parking signs on the building - those on the building are not city No Parking signs. They have as much legal standing as you putting a No Parking sign on the tree in front of your house or me painting a curb red in front of my place. If I change my side yard fence that faces a side street by installing a gate there to accomodate a camper. I can certainly put No Parking sign on my lovely new 12 foot wide gate, but that No Parking sign will not have any legal standing unless I get the city to designate that location as a driveway (which I know they will not do).

The third picture with the green fence has a "no parking" on that side of the street (seen if you change the view in google maps) - but the ticket was issued for blocking a driveway, and y question is not asking about a No Parking violation. That said, that particular sign was installed after my friend received the ticket at that location. So the picture is correctly identifying the topic of the original question.

Thank you

 

[jeffreyt2000]

There is a sign that says, “private property” and the private property appears to extend to where you say you parked your vehicle. It would not be the curb cut that is the issue but rather the fact that you parked in a tow-away zone.

Which picture are you refering to with a Private Property sign? I don't see one.
That said, the street is not private property. You can park on any street in front of private property. And only the City can define a tow away zone on the street, not the owner or tenant of a building on the other side of the sidewalk.
So I am not sure of your position.

 

[adjusterjack]

My original question was a higher level question that was basically:
1. Given the definition of a driveway per the California Streets And Highways code (SHC) Division 7, Part 3, Chapter 27, Article 1, Section 5870 which clearly states: "“Driveway” means a paved portion of a public street providing an unobstructed passage from the roadway to an offstreet area used for driving, servicing, parking, or otherwise accommodating motor vehicles."
2. And the area in question does not lead to an "offstreet area used for ... accommodating motor vehicles" because there is a wall, fence, or repurposed area where no vehicles can enter (even if curb cuts exist).
3. then the location in question is not blocking a "driveway" per CA state definition of a driveway.
4. So should a ticket not be issued or can it be legitimately argued against based on those facts?

OK, I'll talk about your higher level question.

Number 1 - Where you got cited.

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7821462,-122.4590011,3a,75y,267.61h,76.72t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1smvP2Ks7FxjMmRoMYUNlk2Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

There's an entrance and an exit to parking garage. You'll acknowledge that the curb cuts in front of them lead to driveways, right? I'm guessing that you parked between the tree/dumpster and the corner of the building where the exit is and you're saying that's not a driveway because the wall of the building is there.

I think that the extension of the curb cut was made so that drivers would be able to exit diagonally across that section to ease into traffic. At any rate, my opinion, that extension is part of the driveway leading into the parking garage. You can certainly make the argument in court that it isn't. Why don't you do that and come back and tell us how you made out.

Number 2 - With the raised floors.

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7815366,-122.4510568,3a,59.1y,80.7h,75.96t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1syA29eecJbsHlyRPmg5SkkA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

There are three garage doors with large window panes. One of the doors is part way up indicating that all three doors can be raised for deliveries where trucks back up on to the driveways. Slice it any way you want, it's a driveway. The signs are irrelevant. That the occupants park their own cars there is also irrelevant. The ticket was proper.

Did your friend go to court and raise a defense? If so, with what results?

Number 3 - Green fence with gate.

That's a driveway too. For the same reason as Number 1. It's an extension of the driveway leading to the garage. Was the driveway definition raised as a defense? If so, with what results?

 

[jeffreyt2000]

FYI, I fought the citation and won.

I initially protested the citation online with a summary of my argument and typical of SFMTA this initial appeal was denied (I lost). I expected this since at this stage they basically look a the details of the citation, pictures from the parking control officer, and your submitted summary then with the presumption of guilt the person makes the initial ruling.

So I paid the fine and requested an administrative hearing (second level protest) for the citation. Normally these hearings would be in person, but with the Covid situations they have you submit your facts online and do an initial review. I was able to submit more photos, a letter with my testimony describing my argument, the vehicle code definitions, and other facts and details that I felt were relevant. At this hearing they examine the written testimony in more detail than the initial protest and spend more time examining the situation.

It took a month, but today I received the email stating "After reviewing all the evidence, the citation has been dismissed."

They also stated "This decision does not in any way establish a precedent for other violations." - basically telling me to not park there again .

 

[quincy]

Thank you for the update.

 

[Zigner]

FYI, I fought the citation and won.

I initially protested the citation online with a summary of my argument and typical of SFMTA this initial appeal was denied (I lost). I expected this since at this stage they basically look a the details of the citation, pictures from the parking control officer, and your submitted summary then with the presumption of guilt the person makes the initial ruling.

So I paid the fine and requested an administrative hearing (second level protest) for the citation. Normally these hearings would be in person, but with the Covid situations they have you submit your facts online and do an initial review. I was able to submit more photos, a letter with my testimony describing my argument, the vehicle code definitions, and other facts and details that I felt were relevant. At this hearing they examine the written testimony in more detail than the initial protest and spend more time examining the situation.

It took a month, but today I received the email stating "After reviewing all the evidence, the citation has been dismissed."

They also stated "This decision does not in any way establish a precedent for other violations." - basically telling me to not park there again .

Congratulations.