Grandparents need help setting up a visitation schedule with narcissistic father of 12yr old girl.

[JLAVG]

State of Indiana.
My wife (49) and I (55) have guardianship of our 12 year old grand-daughter because after our daughter's fiancee committed suicide, in 2021, she got involved in drugs and ended up in prison for 2 years. Our daughter has Full Legal and Physical Custody of our grand-daughter.
Her bio father (51) has been in and out of prison (for drugs, burglary, and battery) since she was born and has never had any contact with her. He was released from prison at the beginning of 2022 and asked us if he could meet her and set up a regular visitation schedule. We did video visits every week for 2 months and then started supervised (by me or my wife) in person visits once a week for the past few months. My wife felt uncomfortable being alone around him so I supervised most of the visits and I had to repeatedly ask him to stop bad mouthing my daughter to my grand-daughter during the visits. We also had to constantly remind him about his foul language. Since he was on parole and home detention we always took her to him for the visits. In June he got his own apartment (which is a 3 room studio with the main room being a 10x12 living room that is also his bedroom). After getting his apartment he started asking us about when he could start having his 12 year old daughter stay the night with him. We voiced our concern that she doesn't have any place to sleep and he replied that she could sleep on the floor next to his bed. Last month (July 2022) we received paperwork that he is asking for Joint Custody and a regular (every other weekend) visitation schedule. In his motion he claims that we have given him limited access to her over the past few months. We borrowed $2500 and hired a highly recommended local attorney and he told us that we are lucky her father is not trying to get full legal and physical custody and has told us that we should come up with a very "generous" stair stepped visitation schedule to present to the court. I asked about a reunification counselor and our attorney said that could cost as much as $5000 and that the could would most likely make us pay for it if we request it.
So, with all of that being said, our attorney said we should ask for a couple 2 hour supervised visits and a couple 6 hour un-supervised visits and then we should allow him to take her every other weekend from Friday at 6pm to Sunday at 6pm. To me, this does NOT this seem reasonable. Our grand-daughter hates going over to see him. She does NOT like being touched and he will hug her and tell her that he knows that she doesn't like it when he hugs her but he is her father and he is going to do it anyway. This is one of the reasons my wife didn't like supervising the visits. When he did it in front of my wife, and she said something, he gave her and attitude saying, he will hug his daughter if he wants to. If he did it when I was there, and I said something, he would let her go and say "sorry, I just like hugging you" to our grand-daughter. We are at a loss as to what we should do and we are scheduled to go to court on Aug. 16.

 

[Zigner]

There is nothing that an internet forum can do to help you more than your attorney.

I will say, however, that your dislike of the father of your granddaughter is glaring. It's not a handsome look.

 

[LdiJ]

There is nothing that an internet forum can do to help you more than your attorney.

I will say, however, that your dislike of the father of your granddaughter is glaring. It's not a handsome look.

I did not get that impression myself. Concern yes, glaring dislike, no.

 

[adjusterjack]

We are at a loss as to what we should do and we are scheduled to go to court on Aug. 16.

You should have your own attorney.

And, at 12, your granddaughter is old enough to get up in court and testify about her dislike and revulsion to the hugging.

 

[Zigner]

I did not get that impression myself. Concern yes, glaring dislike, no.

The thread title is "narcissistic father". Sounds like more than "concern" to me.

 

[stealth2]

Yeah, I'm sorta leaning Zig on this one.

 

[Eekamouse]

I don't get the narcissistic comment about the father. He's narcissistic because he wants joint custody of his child? That's a stupid thing to say.

 

[not2cleverRed]

We borrowed $2500 and hired a highly recommended local attorney and he told us that we are lucky her father is not trying to get full legal and physical custody and has told us that we should come up with a very "generous" stair stepped visitation schedule to present to the court. I asked about a reunification counselor and our attorney said that could cost as much as $5000 and that the could would most likely make us pay for it if we request it.

Pony up the money for counselling. Really. You have no legal argument without it, but you *might* be in less trouble with it.

1) It makes you seem reasonable. I've never met the dude, but I do know that if paternity has been established, you'll be better off in court if you can show that you've tried to foster a positive relationship between your granddaughter and her father.
2) The counsellor would be a more credible witness than you if something is amiss - worst case scenario, but necessary in court. Your observations are considered biased. Best case scenario: Dad stays on the path to straightening out, and the counsellor helps your granddaughter on the road to developing a healthy relationship with her father.

Even if you are a licensed mental health care provider, take "narcissistic" out of your vocabulary when thinking about your granddaughter's father. Don't think it, and certainly don't say or write it. Stick to facts, not opinion.

 

[adjusterjack]

I don't get the narcissistic comment about the father. He's narcissistic because he wants joint custody of his child? That's a stupid thing to say.

Typical hostility of parent's family against non-family parent.

It could just as well be the man's parents complaining about his ex-wife.

 

[Zigner]

Typical hostility of parent's family against non-family parent.

It could just as well be the man's parents complaining about his ex-wife.

Yes, no question about that. The problem is that, in my opinion, their hostility is interfering with their ability to foster the relationship that the father is trying to develop with his child. Their hostility is causing them to want to set up road blocks instead of participating in the development of a positive path forward.

 

[stealth2]

So... your lawyer is right - you're lucky Dad isn't going for custody. It sounds as though he is working on building a relationship with his child. His child. Always keep those words in your head - His child. A lot of people have difficulty with the whole "don't touch/hug me" thing. That is one area where therapy between Dad and child could be useful.

Agreed that he should not badmouth Mom to the child. But... language...? She's 12. She's already heard it. Likely used it. Not really that big a deal, tbh. I set guidelines for my kids - not in front of the grands, not at school, and so on. At home? Let it fly! Just words.

You really need to listen to your lawyer.

 

[Zigner]

We voiced our concern that she doesn't have any place to sleep and he replied that she could sleep on the floor next to his bed.

I'm curious...

Did you suggest that he buy an air mattress for her to sleep on? They're dirt cheap. You could even have offered to buy it so that the child didn't have to sleep on the floor. I mean...the child is the important one, right?

 

[Just Blue]

px hx

 

[JLAVG]

Maybe I should give more back story of our situation. Before we allowed him to meet our grand-daughter my wife and I met with her father to get a feel for what kind of person he is and to lay down some ground rules like the fact that she doesn't like to be touched. So, if you hug her please make it brief at least until she becomes more comfortable with you. Please refrain from swearing around her because when we met with him, he couldn't seem to complete a sentence without using the f-word. And we asked him to refrain from bad mouthing her mother or her mothers dead fiancee. So, the fact that he has told my grand-daughter, on 3 separate occasions, that her mom is a F-ing C-word doesn't sit well with me. He still swears constantly around her and when she asked him to "please don't use that language" he told her "F-you, I'm the parent, not you!" That he told her that the reason he went to jail from 2017 until last year was because my daughter had someone plant drugs in his apartment and then called the cops on him. When the court records show that he had sold meth to a under cover police officer. That he told my grand-daughter that my daughter's fiancee killing himself was the only smart thing he ever did. Keep in mind that man was in my grand-daughter life from the time she was 2 and she loved him with all of her heart. And it wasn't so much that fact that he would hug her, it was the fact that he would keep a hold of her when he could feel her trying to push away from him and he told her "I know you don't like this but I'm dad and I'm going to do it anyway!" Maybe I was raised with more respect for people than some of you but I ask you... What kind of man says that to a 12 year old girl and what is the message he is trying to send by saying and doing that? I could go on but if you don't understand why I feel he is a narcissist and I have concerns about her being alone around him then maybe I've come to the wrong place for help.

 

[JLAVG]

You should have your own attorney.

And, at 12, your granddaughter is old enough to get up in court and testify about her dislike and revulsion to the hugging.

Our attorney said Indiana does law doesn't allow a child's testimony, in cases like this, until the child is 14