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Whiskey Barrel Head Stamps

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I make and sell stuff using whiskey barrels and whiskey barrel parts. I am curious if we were to take a whiskey barrel head with a stamp from the distillery on it and sand it it so it's cleaned up and smooth and then re apply the same stamp ourselves if that would be considered copyright infringement? It's basically refurbishing it but not sure if that is the same since we remove it originally.
 


LdiJ

Senior Member
I make and sell stuff using whiskey barrels and whiskey barrel parts. I am curious if we were to take a whiskey barrel head with a stamp from the distillery on it and sand it it so it's cleaned up and smooth and then re apply the same stamp ourselves if that would be considered copyright infringement? It's basically refurbishing it but not sure if that is the same since we remove it originally.
That is an interesting question. However, prior to getting an answer on that question another question probably needs to be asked, and that question is "can you make and sell things from items that have someone else's trademark on them?". You should get a consult with a local attorney that specializes in that area.
 

quincy

Senior Member
I make and sell stuff using whiskey barrels and whiskey barrel parts. I am curious if we were to take a whiskey barrel head with a stamp from the distillery on it and sand it it so it's cleaned up and smooth and then re apply the same stamp ourselves if that would be considered copyright infringement? It's basically refurbishing it but not sure if that is the same since we remove it originally.
What is the name of your state or, if not in the U.S., what is the name of your country?

It would not be copyright infringement to do what you intend. It could be (and probably would be) trademark infringement.

A trademark holder has the right to determine how, or if, his brand is used by others. You will want to contact the distillery for permission to use their trademark.
 
What is the name of your state or, if not in the U.S., what is the name of your country?

It would not be copyright infringement to do what you intend. It could be (and probably would be) trademark infringement.

A trademark holder has the right to determine how, or if, his brand is used by others. You will want to contact the distillery for permission to use their trademark.
We are in Michigan. We already sell raw parts from distilleries with markings but we also make stuff out of them but that stuff doesn't have any brand markings. A lot of our competitors already do what I am talking about just want to make sure we are going about it the right way and don't hurt our business.
 

quincy

Senior Member
We are in Michigan. We already sell raw parts from distilleries with markings but we also make stuff out of them but that stuff doesn't have any brand markings. A lot of our competitors already do what I am talking about just want to make sure we are going about it the right way and don't hurt our business.
First of all, don’t base what you do on what others are doing. That’s a good way to get into trouble.

Second, thanks for providing your state name. Michigan is a great state!

When you create something new with someone else’s trademark, it is advised that you get permission from the trademark holder first. Trademark holders tend to be pretty protective of their rights.

Following are links to, one, an older forum thread that addresses the laws involved with trademark modifications, and, two, one of the major cases mentioned in that thread:

https://forum.freeadvice.com/threads/selling-reconstructed-hockey-jerseys-is-this-legal.506442/

https://casetext.com/case/davidoff-cie-v-pld-international-corp#p.1302

The best way to avoid any legal challenge to your use of the distillery’s mark is to get permission from the distillery to use it.
 
First of all, don’t base what you do on what others are doing. That’s a good way to get into trouble.

Second, thanks for providing your state name. Michigan is a great state!

When you create something new with someone else’s trademark, it is advised that you get permission from the trademark holder first. Trademark holders tend to be pretty protective of their rights.

Following are links to, one, an older forum thread that addresses the laws involved with trademark modifications, and, two, one of the major cases mentioned in that thread:

https://forum.freeadvice.com/threads/selling-reconstructed-hockey-jerseys-is-this-legal.506442/

https://casetext.com/case/davidoff-cie-v-pld-international-corp#p.1302

The best way to avoid any legal challenge to your use of the distillery’s mark is to get permission from the distillery to use it.
Yes I wasn't necessarily basing what we do on what others do. I know a lot of our competitors do that and was curious if it was just considered refurbishing and if it was legal to do. I will reach out to some of the distilleries and see if I can get permission to use the stamps. Thanks for the help.
 

quincy

Senior Member
Yes I wasn't necessarily basing what we do on what others do. I know a lot of our competitors do that and was curious if it was just considered refurbishing and if it was legal to do. I will reach out to some of the distilleries and see if I can get permission to use the stamps. Thanks for the help.
I think that reaching out to the distilleries is best. Try to get any permissions to use their marks in writing.

Michigan has some great distilleries. About 53 of them, I believe.

Good luck.
 

zddoodah

Active Member
I am curious if we were to take a whiskey barrel head with a stamp from the distillery on it and sand it it so it's cleaned up and smooth and then re apply the same stamp ourselves if that would be considered copyright infringement?
That would depend on whether the stamp is a work of authorship within the subject matter of copyright as set forth in section 102 of the Copyright Act.


It's basically refurbishing it but not sure if that is the same since we remove it originally.
IF the stamp is a work of authorship, your removal of the existing stamp would destroy the copy. No problem with that. However, at that point you're essentially starting from scratch. There's no meaningful difference between the piece of wood (I assume) that used to have the stamp and a random, similarly shaped piece of wood that never had a stamp.


However, prior to getting an answer on that question another question probably needs to be asked, and that question is "can you make and sell things from items that have someone else's trademark on them?".
I don't know that there's any priority here, but I agree that it's another issue that needs to be considered. If the OP legally owns a "whiskey barrel head" that happens to have a trademark on it, there's no issue with selling that item. However, the removal of the existing stamp and application of a new stamp raises both copyright and trademark issues. I also agree that a consultation with an IP attorney is needed.
 

quincy

Senior Member
That would depend on whether the stamp is a work of authorship within the subject matter of copyright as set forth in section 102 of the Copyright Act.




IF the stamp is a work of authorship, your removal of the existing stamp would destroy the copy. No problem with that. However, at that point you're essentially starting from scratch. There's no meaningful difference between the piece of wood (I assume) that used to have the stamp and a random, similarly shaped piece of wood that never had a stamp.




I don't know that there's any priority here, but I agree that it's another issue that needs to be considered. If the OP legally owns a "whiskey barrel head" that happens to have a trademark on it, there's no issue with selling that item. However, the removal of the existing stamp and application of a new stamp raises both copyright and trademark issues. I also agree that a consultation with an IP attorney is needed.
Some of the whiskey barrel stamps can be protected under both copyright law and trademark law. Many of the logos have designs that are both original and creative, and the trademark includes both the name and the logo as identifiers.

Seeking permission to use the whiskey barrel heads from the whiskey distilleries/holders of the marks is what was advised and what skullcreekdesigns has indicated he will do.
 

PayrollHRGuy

Senior Member
It is not that clear cut.
It really is. People have been refurbishing, including trademarks, since not long after they started protecting trademarks. And I would love to see evidence that in a single case, it has been considered trademark infringement.
 

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