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Bali Hai Again

Active Member
We’ve had this difference before and I’m not hearing anything new that would convince me that squatters deserve to steal land. In fact they are trespassers who know they can lawfully steal land instead of paying for it, and, prey on the unaware individuals who find themselves facing these ridiculous laws. You are an attorney and of course aware of these laws, the majority of people are not aware until they lose what they bought.
 


quincy

Senior Member
An interesting (although probably obvious) fact on prescriptive easements: A prescriptive easement can be completely extinguished if the property with the prescriptive easement is permanently changed, by the owner or by circumstances, making the property incompatible with the prescriptive easement rights.

For example, an individual with prescriptive easement rights to use a building or to use wooded land would/could lose these rights if the building is demolished or the land is a victim of a massive earthquake or fire or mudslide.

I suppose if a property owner wants to build a shopping mall on his land and cut down all his trees and pave the land, that would put an end to hunting and camping.

:unsure:
 

Taxing Matters

Overtaxed Member
You are an attorney and of course aware of these laws, the majority of people are not aware until they lose what they bought.
When you make a sizeable investment, isn't the prudent thing to do to find out everything you need to do to safeguard that investment? I think so, and that comes not from my attorney background but from my business background. If you are a business person or investor, and you don't know all the laws that affect your investment, you take a risk that some bad will happen due to that lack knowledge. This is just a basic principle of business and investing: what you don't know can hurt you. If you make a major investment of any kind and don't do the work to find out the rules that apply to it, IMO that's on you. Business people and investors are assumed in the law to be saavy and knowledgeable about their financial activities. That's precisely why they get less protection under the law than consumers do. They get more freedom to structure their business deals in exchange for less of the state "protecting" them. By and large that benefits them, but to get that, they have to take on the burden of actually knowing the rules that apply to their investments. If they don't know it, they consult people who do. That's the way things have been for centuries, and I see no reason to suddenly give those people more nanny like protection. I'll say it again: if they aren't willing to do the very minimum needed to protect their property, why should the government do it for them? I mean, it's not like it's hard to do, or that a consultation with a lawyer or real estate experit to find that out is all that expensive. It just takes a little effort for the investor to think the following: "what all do I have to do to protect my property and what do I need to do find that out?" Too many people think they know more about finance, investing, and the law than they really do, and they end up sometimes taking it on the chin as a result. It's a bit like getting behind the wheel of a car and getting on the highway. If you don't understand how the car works and the rules of the road, you risk getting yourself or others killed. If it was somehow real hard for landowners to get the information they need, I'd be more sympathetic. The problem isn't that it's a great burden on them to do it. The problem is that they just don't think about doing it in the first place. And IMO, that's on them. We don't need government to hand hold us on everything to protect us from our own mistakes.
 

quincy

Senior Member
Owner-investors can simply hire property management companies to check on their properties off and on to prevent adverse possessions and unwanted easements. You will rarely find well-maintained properties with squatters in residence or trespassers running amok.

Joe’s A+ made longtime use of property owned by an absentee neighbor. That A+ gained rights after years of ambivalence about or neglect of the property by owner B is the failure of B - and the easement is not erased with the transfer of the property from B to C or the sale of the property by C to F.
 
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The principles of adverse possession and prescriptive easements our not outdated. They serve the same purpose as they have for centuries: to ensure that land is being put to some kind of productive use. Every absentee owner should know about the law on adverse poessession and prescriptive easements to avoid losing rights in their property. And it is not hard or expensive for a property owner to do it. If a property owner cares so little for his/her property that he/she won't even do the very little that is required to avoid someone from establishing a good adverse possession claim then I don't feel all that sorry for the owner. If you own property, it is up to you to protect your interest in it. If you aren't willing to do that, you must not really care what happens to it. So, let's let the person who does care and has been using become the owner instead. So long as the law requires a sufficiently long time for the right established (e.g. 10, 15, 20 years) the owner has had plenty of opportunity to swing by the property, see that someone is using it, and to take the action necessary to eject them. I'm a strong proponent of property rights, but the he owner the owner that can't be bothered check his/her property at least every couple of years is someone who just doesn't really care what happens to it. When the power is the hands of the owner to prevent adverse and prescriptive easement claims from succeeding, then like in many other instances in the law, if you don't actively assert your rights, you can lose them. It's all within the owner's power to prevent it from happening in the first place. It's the owner's fault if he or she doesn't do the minimum needed to assert his/her rights.
Taxing Matters, Thank you so much for your insightful post. You nailed it. We wanted to comment on how the foundations of California real estate law, is rooted in old English common law. It might seem politically incorrect these days to an urban dweller, that it is important to keep land productive and healthy, rather than leaving it in its "pristine" condition. But a few hundred years ago in Europe, it was critical that rich, arable farm land was actually farmed, to provide food for a starving population. It was critical for lush green pastures to be grazed by livestock, to provide food for people. It was critical for lakes and streams to be fished, to feed the people. As quincy pointed out, it was critical for hunting grounds to be hunted, to provide food, or the game would overpopulate, starve, die, and would spread disease. It was also critical to mange woodlands responsibly to provide firewood, and lumber for building and heating their homes. Rich, noble land “owners” who left their fields fallow, and never bothered to even check on their property, were deemed to “not need it”, and so the rights to farm, fish, walk, or ride across, and otherwise use the land was often granted to those that needed to, provided, as you say sufficient time had passed. That period of time was “prescribed” by the courts, and after such time had passed, the use ripened into an easement. Hence the term, prescriptive easement.
 
Owner-investors can simply hire property management companies to check on their properties off and on to prevent adverse possessions and unwanted easements. You will rarely find well-maintained properties with squatters in residence or trespassers running amok.

Joe’s A+ made longtime use of property owned by an absentee neighbor. That A+ gained rights after years of ambivalence about or neglect of the property by owner B is the failure of B - and the easement is not erased with the transfer of the property from B to C or the sale of the property by C to F.
quincy, Absolutely 1000% correct. Thank you!
 
We just wanted to say how much we appreciate everyone taking the time to engage in this thread. We’d like to make a couple of other comments. Since the tree cutting became such an issue, we’d like to point out that; older mature trees around here almost always have about a dozen small stunted baby trees, under the rain shadow of the older tree. As soon as we cut and remove the older tree, the ”babies” begin to receive full sunlight, full moisture, and nutrients from the soil. No longer needing to compete with the old tree, they exhibit explosive growth. Now, we admit that it takes 20 to 30 years for those new trees to become harvestable, but lot 1 had nearly a thousand trees on it, and during the last 50 years we have cut about 50, leaving a dozen new young trees for each one cut. There are more trees on lot 1, than when we started. That does not translate into us “stealing or destroying their land”. We process the remaining limbs and slash into “bio-char” and spread it on the land. If you are not familiar, please look it up, and check the term “terra preta”. You will learn that it enhances the soil and sequesters carbon in to the soil for up to a thousand years. The bottom line is that we cut trees on our own land, and treat it the same way, with love and respect. We live close to the land, and deep down, we really view ourselves not as owners, but as being owned by the land, and having a responsibility to be good partners. Alternatively, the absentee owner probably spent the last 50 years behind a desk, with a calculator, scheming on how much profit they would make, when they sold their “investment property”.
 

Taxing Matters

Overtaxed Member
Alternatively, the absentee owner probably spent the last 50 years behind a desk, with a calculator, scheming on how much profit they would make, when they sold their “investment property”.
Nothing wrong with that. And if the owner does the minimal amount of work to keep others from making continual use of the property, that owner is entitled to let it sit and sell it for that anticipated profit years later. The mistake is not keeping an eye on the investment, same mistake as never checking your stock portfolio, your idle bank account, or any other asset.
 
Taxing Matters, you're absolutely right. Nothing wrong with making a profit.
I guess we wanted to re-state the more important part of the question we had. that is;
As we anticipate receiving a civil complaint by the new owner of the lot, which would necessarily indicate that they were not informed of the easements, we will eventually have 30 days to file an answer to the complaint. In that answer, we would include every affirmative defense known to man. But might it be possible to include fraud, either as an affirmative defense, or as part of a cross complaint in the answer. we realize that the fraud was not exactly targeting us, but in a way it was, by shifting the burden from C to F. we also realize that we have no out of pocket damages, but we think there may be an argument for collateral damages. even emotional distress, or something. an interesting side note is that if we did that, then the only local attorney (E) would become a defendant in the cross complaint alleging fraud against F and A+. If absolutely everyone here on the forum says no, no way, then we'll give it up, but we would love to do a deep dive on the possibility.
 

quincy

Senior Member
Taxing Matters, you're absolutely right. Nothing wrong with making a profit.
I guess we wanted to re-state the more important part of the question we had. that is;
As we anticipate receiving a civil complaint by the new owner of the lot, which would necessarily indicate that they were not informed of the easements, we will eventually have 30 days to file an answer to the complaint. In that answer, we would include every affirmative defense known to man. But might it be possible to include fraud, either as an affirmative defense, or as part of a cross complaint in the answer. we realize that the fraud was not exactly targeting us, but in a way it was, by shifting the burden from C to F. we also realize that we have no out of pocket damages, but we think there may be an argument for collateral damages. even emotional distress, or something. an interesting side note is that if we did that, then the only local attorney (E) would become a defendant in the cross complaint alleging fraud against F and A+. If absolutely everyone here on the forum says no, no way, then we'll give it up, but we would love to do a deep dive on the possibility.
I don’t see any legal action that you have to pursue against C, D, or E. C was not and is not required to do anything for you. He owned property and he sold the property. The conditions of the sale are between him and F.
 
We mentioned before that we we're thinking that a prescriptive easement holder has a quasi-ownership interest in the lot even though it isn't recorded. so that is something we can look at a little closer. a couple of affirmative defenses that came to mind are "wrong party", and "proximate cause". but first we want to explore the fraud angle. in California;
The affirmative defense of fraud has five elements, (1) a false representation; (2) about a material fact; (3) made with knowledge of its untruth; (4) with intent to deceive; and (5) defendant relied on the representation. so number five is the problem, but if it is plead along with the two other affirmative defenses above then? we wouldn't be saying F perpetrated the fraud, but instead C, D, and E did, and are the proximate cause of the injury/complaint.
 

quincy

Senior Member
We mentioned before that we we're thinking that a prescriptive easement holder has a quasi-ownership interest in the lot even though it isn't recorded. so that is something we can look at a little closer. a couple of affirmative defenses that came to mind are "wrong party", and "proximate cause". but first we want to explore the fraud angle. in California;
The affirmative defense of fraud has five elements, (1) a false representation; (2) about a material fact; (3) made with knowledge of its untruth; (4) with intent to deceive; and (5) defendant relied on the representation. so number five is the problem, but if it is plead along with the two other affirmative defenses above then? we wouldn't be saying F perpetrated the fraud, but instead C, D, and E did, and are the proximate cause of the injury/complaint.
You are not the victim of fraud. F might be, depending on what he was told (or not told) about the easement.
 

LdiJ

Senior Member
We mentioned before that we we're thinking that a prescriptive easement holder has a quasi-ownership interest in the lot even though it isn't recorded. so that is something we can look at a little closer. a couple of affirmative defenses that came to mind are "wrong party", and "proximate cause". but first we want to explore the fraud angle. in California;
The affirmative defense of fraud has five elements, (1) a false representation; (2) about a material fact; (3) made with knowledge of its untruth; (4) with intent to deceive; and (5) defendant relied on the representation. so number five is the problem, but if it is plead along with the two other affirmative defenses above then? we wouldn't be saying F perpetrated the fraud, but instead C, D, and E did, and are the proximate cause of the injury/complaint.
If there was fraud, it wasn't against you. Therefore, none of those elements apply to you. And no, a prescriptive easement isn't quasi-ownership and never will be. Any kind of easement is the right to use a property for a specific purpose. That never confers ownership rights, even on a quasi basis. You are mixing adverse possession with prescriptive easement.

Look, what you hoped to see happen was that if everyone knew that you claimed a prescriptive easement that no one would want to buy the property, and you would therefore be able to get it for the price you wanted. That didn't happen. That doesn't mean that any kind of fraud was perpetuated against you. It just means that things didn't go the way that you hoped.

In addition, no matter how you try to couch it as good stewardship, I am almost certain that any attorney you consult would not only tell you to stop cutting down trees, but to sure as heck stop admitting that you have been cutting down trees.
 
LdiJ, We are really tired of you accusing our family of having ulterior motives. We’re done here. Thanks to everyone else for your help.
 

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