Standing for the Pledge--New Jersey

Okay, I know there's already one like this, but I wasn't totally sure if it differed from state to state. So, basically I don't feel like standing for the flag salute. I'm not athiest, I just don't want to. (And I'm not too fond of the government, currently) Also, by not standing I'm not trying to show disrespect or anything, I don't believe I need to stand to respect the soldiers in Iraq, or anywhere for that matter. Standing won't help them in war, and it won't hurt any of them in war either. Now I suppose that's not really a "good" reason (or at least that's what I've been told), but whatever. So the vice principal took me into his office and 'warned' me. Later I looked it up and wrote down information on the Lipp VS Morris case. I didn't stand. Then he came in again, I grabbed my papers and went to his office.

He said there was a "more recent" case than Lipp VS Morris regarding this issue, but didn't know the name of it, or the year in which it took place, and said that in New Jersey the school can make you stand, just not say the pledge. Then he gave me detention (which I attended yesterday because I didn't have much of a choice.) I realize that I should've taken the papers to him rather than waiting for him to find me, but I didn't, and that's partially why I got the detention. That's all said and done with, but my question is, in New Jersey has there really been a "more recent" case saying that a school can make you stand, and if not, how am I going to get him to admit he's wrong and let me be?

He needs find the missing case since Lipp. You need to contact the ACLU.

notsmartmark said:

He needs find the missing case since Lipp.

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Not so smart Mark:

Want to try that again?

Please inform me of the case since Lipp that would impact standing for the pledge in New Jersey.

notsmartmark said:

Please inform me of the case since Lipp that would impact standing for the pledge in New Jersey.

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I'd love to hear it, too. Especially since the NJ Bar Association seems to agree with us: http://www.njsbf.org/njsbf/student/studentsrights.cfm#flag

You Are Guilty said:

I'd love to hear it, too. Especially since the NJ Bar Association seems to agree with us: http://www.njsbf.org/njsbf/student/studentsrights.cfm#flag

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Absolutely. And Strawberries can go back to being a selfish, dimwitted, ignorant, jerk. Since he doesn't like our government or want to show any respect for those who have given him his freedoms, perhaps he'd like to try a few years in Iran or hundreds of other countries that recognize NO such rights to free expression. What a great thing to be remembered for....

Boy's lucky he's not my son. (or, if it's a girl - my daughter.) Life would be very unpleasant at home, to say the least.

Yah, and I'll beat him so he'll learn about when and where freedom of speech is allowed, as long as it's speech that I like. You know, if he's going to use that freedom of speech stuff here in this country, why doesn't he move somewhere else.

I think I heard this on FOX news

Who said anything about beating? But some things demand respect, and the flag stands for much more than the current government leaders or the current war - it symbolizes blood shed by honorable men and women on behalf of this country in innumerable causes. And yes, I expect my kids to show the proper respect. They're free to voice their opinions. But I expect them to do so respectfully, not slouching in a chair like a bum. Stand up straight, remove your cap and think about those who died protecting your freedom of speech that you expect others to respect.

stealth2 said:

Who said anything about beating? But some things demand respect, and the flag stands for much more than the current government leaders or the current war - it symbolizes blood shed by honorable men and women on behalf of this country in innumerable causes. And yes, I expect my kids to show the proper respect. They're free to voice their opinions. But I expect them to do so respectfully, not slouching in a chair like a bum. Stand up straight, remove your cap and think about those who died protecting your freedom of speech that you expect others to respect.

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Amen to your whole post, Stealth.

I am a military member, a military officer, a graduate from the U.S. Air Force Academy, and currently a reservist, and there is a poem I'd like to share will all of you, because it pisses me off anytime someone gets their panties in a bunch anytime someone exercises their constitutional rights and chooses not to support the current administration or its policies.

It is the Soldier,
not the reporter who has given us freedom of press

It is the Soldier,
not the poet who has given us freedom of speech

It is the Soldier,
not the campus organizer who gives us freedom to demonstrate

It is the Soldier who salutes the flag,
who serves beneath the flag,
and whose coffin is draped by the flag,
who allows the protester to burn the flag.

Father Dennis Edward O'Brien

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What does that mean? It means that we should respect the soldier, but also understand that people have certain rights, and should exercise them.

This young man's constitutional rights were violated by a school administrator, who, feeling his head swell from the supposed power he thinks he has, felt the need to toss the constitution aside in favor of forcing his own views on the student body.

I have found, in such instances, appealing the vice principal's action to the school board, and then filing an action against the vice principal and school board and dragging them into federal district court is usually a good way to get them to take notice.

That, of course, would be what I would do. And, if you lived somewhere I was licensed, I'd represent you for free, because what that vice principal did is more dangerous to our democracy and way of life than anything some towell head camel jockey with an IED does overseas.

I am sick and tired of people saying that war protesters or people who do not support the administration are unpatriotic or are traitors. That mindset is straight out of cold war russia "support the party, or you are a traitor." What makes this country so great, and how I sleep at night knowing that I have helped defend it, is the freedom to protest, to exercise constitutional rights, to disagree, publicly and at the voting booth.

He can choose not to stand for the pledge because my roommate and best friend from the academy died in the defense of this country, because my grandfather charged Omaha beach on D-day, because my youngest brother was hit by an IED commanding a battalion in Iraq, and because of the countless days and weeks I have spent away from my family and those I love over the past 20+ years in service to this country. Who the hell are you to say that he cannot?

badapple40 said:

I am a military member, a military officer, a graduate from the U.S. Air Force Academy, and currently a reservist, and there is a poem I'd like to share will all of you, because it pisses me off anytime someone gets their panties in a bunch anytime someone exercises their constitutional rights and chooses not to support the current administration or its policies.



What does that mean? It means that we should respect the soldier, but also understand that people have certain rights, and should exercise them.

This young man's constitutional rights were violated by a school administrator, who, feeling his head swell from the supposed power he thinks he has, felt the need to toss the constitution aside in favor of forcing his own views on the student body.

I have found, in such instances, appealing the vice principal's action to the school board, and then filing an action against the vice principal and school board and dragging them into federal district court is usually a good way to get them to take notice.

That, of course, would be what I would do. And, if you lived somewhere I was licensed, I'd represent you for free, because what that vice principal did is more dangerous to our democracy and way of life than anything some towell head camel jockey with an IED does overseas.

I am sick and tired of people saying that war protesters or people who do not support the administration are unpatriotic or are traitors. That mindset is straight out of cold war russia "support the party, or you are a traitor." What makes this country so great, and how I sleep at night knowing that I have helped defend it, is the freedom to protest, to exercise constitutional rights, to disagree, publicly and at the voting booth.

He can choose not to stand for the pledge because my roommate and best friend from the academy died in the defense of this country, because my grandfather charged Omaha beach on D-day, because my youngest brother was hit by an IED commanding a battalion in Iraq, and because of the countless days and weeks I have spent away from my family and those I love over the past 20+ years in service to this country. Who the hell are you to say that he cannot?

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Exactly...I say amen to this whole post.

I hope Strawberries comes back and reads and absorbs much of the information on this thread. Apparently, his/her education so far has left out a great deal.

I hear a lot of young people today making declarations about their "rights". Unfortunately, most of them only care about their right to be selfish or do whatever makes them feel good at the time. It seems that too many of our classrooms are being led by people who not only never served in a military or similar capacity, but their own entire education path has consisted of grade school, high school, college...then back to the same school system.

If we were talking about families in Arkansas we would call that "inbreeding". The result is very clear. While other young men and women are putting on the uniforms of their trade/profession/service, the would-be teacher corps is being spoon fed the same pablum by the same lineup of inbreeds who gained their life "experience" without ever leaving the land of hallways and hourly bells. It is not life experience with sacrifice or real world knowledge. It is regurgitation.

That is why I think anyone who wants to teach our youth should have 5-10 years of experience in the nonacademic world before putting a foot into a classroom.

I would have to ask Strawberries exactly what it is that he/she does not have, or cannot acquire, that makes our present government so bad that a simple gesture of respect is not due to all those who have given so much for his/her life to be so good as it truly is. If I had to drag myself out of Mexico to be able to feed my family because the corruption is so great; or had to flee in the night from the Taliban or some Ayatollah to keep my children from being tortured; or was threatened by some Castro-like dictator that if I tried to leave I and my family would be jailed....then I would hate to stand and give respect to my "government".

Here, we can complain about too much spending, too many perks for our representatives, too much meddling, too much/not enough entitlements, too much/not enough give-aways, etc. All we have to do is participate to change what we don't like. And, if we're really unhappy...the door is always open to leave. The good outweighs the bad by such a preponderance and proportion, it makes us seem so petty when we complain about the traffic signals of our lives.

I'd also have to ask Strawberries if he/she stands and places his/her hand over the heart when the National Anthem is played. Or, is that too much bother, too.

dallas702 said:

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I would have to ask Strawberries exactly what it is that he/she does not have, or cannot acquire, that makes our present government so bad that a simple gesture of respect is not due to all those who have given so much for his/her life to be so good as it truly is. If I had to drag myself out of Mexico to be able to feed my family because the corruption is so great; or had to flee in the night from the Taliban or some Ayatollah to keep my children from being tortured; or was threatened by some Castro-like dictator that if I tried to leave I and my family would be jailed....then I would hate to stand and give respect to my "government".

Here, we can complain about too much spending, too many perks for our representatives, too much meddling, too much/not enough entitlements, too much/not enough give-aways, etc. All we have to do is participate to change what we don't like. And, if we're really unhappy...the door is always open to leave. The good outweighs the bad by such a preponderance and proportion, it makes us seem so petty when we complain about the traffic signals of our lives.

I'd also have to ask Strawberries if he/she stands and places his/her hand over the heart when the National Anthem is played. Or, is that too much bother, too.

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And my response is that if the OP doesn't want to stand for the pledge, or place his hand over his heart for the National Anthem (I don't put my hand over my heart, I stand at attention for it), or wants to wear a black armband in protest of the war, then I say he can do it. And so does the constitution. This idea of him doing it to give thanks to people, like me, my brother, and my roommate, is hogwash. We'll do our job regardless, we took an oath and we'll carry out our duty, whether or not some 16 year old stands or doesn't stand for the pledge.

But really, you want him to respect us, and, by implication, what the country/administration is doing. I say that is hogwash. Everyone should question what is going on, ascertain the facts, and make a decision. This idea of going with the flow is dangerous. It is dangerous, in my mind, that we are holding people incognito in Guantanimo Bay, Cuba. Incidentally, a very good friend of mine is working down there. It is dangerous that people on an internet forum feel that this kid HAS TO STAND UP because he should respect what the troops are doing.

He can respect the troops, or not. He has the right to disagree with what we are doing overseas, and to protest it by not standing for the pledge. I find it sickening that you say the door is open to change, and then criticize this young man for taking a stance towards change -- by not standing.

You know, back in the 60s, some black folks went into some restaurants designated for whites only and refused to leave. Rosa Parks refused to move to the back of the bus, because what was going on in the country was wrong. They sparked an entire political movement because they stood up for what was right and spoke through their actions. This young man takes issue with something going on in this country by refusing to stand for the pledge.

Do these educators stop and ask themselves why he is protesting, or have a discussion about it or the issues in this country, an open and honest debate? Or do they simply seek to enforce compliance with their way of thinking. Because that is what is really going on. And it isn't limited to the classroom.

If this were one of my children exercising his constitutional rights, we'd be in federal court faster than you can blink.

Yada, yada, yada. No one said he HAD to stand or show any respect in any way. I said he should show respect because it's the right and honorable thing to do. It's also what most people who realize what we really have here do.

As far as GITMO or any other detention facility goes, if you think these detainees (gathered from the battlefield, but not conforming to Geveva Convention rules for POWS) are so mistreated you are welcome to house them at your home for as long as you survive.