Standing for the Pledge--New Jersey

[dallas702]

I disagree. I'd rather die than live under an imperialist, autocratic regime (I'm not saying that we are there now -- but we could get there, that whole slippery slope). Blow me up and my family up if you have to, if it would prevent our government from installing camera's in my house, my bedroom, and trying to regulate my thoughts. If I lived in Cuba, I'd sure as heck take up arms against Castro. And if I lived in Iraq prior to our dealing with the situation there, I'd take up arms against Saddam. There are things worth fighting for and dying for, and freedom is among them.

I am a libertarian at heart, for less regulation, for less government. I do not mind the government checking security at airports, or going through x-rays when I walk into a federal court house, or even a public stadium. We need to take precautions.

You start listening in on my telephone calls, particulary those to my wife or my family, and we are gonna have some serious problems. You evesdrop on my e-mails, to intercept attorney-client communications for the purpose of gathering evidence to help prove a crime that my clients may have committed, and we are going to have serious problems.

You try to implant chips on my body to track my movements, or my voting patterns to make sure I vote along the party line, or install microphones or cameras in or around my house because we should keep tabs on all American citizens, or you try to remove my ability to own a firearm so that you can further subjugate the American citizenry, and I will take up arms against the government because it is in violation of the constitution and must be overthrown.

This is not because the government would discover any wrongdoing, quite the contrary, but because I have the right to live free, curtailed only by the requirement not to do harm to others.

A little extreme for today's time, I admit. Fortunately for us, a group of men in the 1770's had similar notions to my own and acted upon them. And fortunately, to date, the U.S. Supreme Court has not abdicated its role in protecting the American citizenry against unchecked executive power, nor does it seem likely to do so in the future.

I recognize that freedom is not absolute, but there are limits to what the government can and should do.

And I have spent the better part of my life supporting and defending the constitution. It embodies an idea that goes beyond personal safety, although it envisions personal safety. It is, at its core, a declaration of fundamental freedoms and checks on absolute government, in the hopes of fostering a country of free thinking, freedom loving people. When we move away from that, towards something else because people are afraid of, in this case terrorists, they win and we lose... our freedom.

In the context of present national security issues the agonizing over wiretaps and being spied upon is greatly blown far out of proportion. The government is not listening in on you or I...or anyone who is not getting communications from Alqueda or other sworn enemies. They are not scanning everyone's home to see if we are being naughty. They are tracking comm from outside in, and then back.

Since anyone already has the ability to hear or see almost anything we communicate now, I hardly fear our government wasting their time on my rantings. They have far too many real threats to deal with. True, it could become abusive if not monitored. However, I don't want a bunch of political hacks in DC fumbling up our intelligence and causing the death of thousands of people just so they can say "Look how I'm protecting you".

Freedom over life sounds so altruisic, but you can't fight for freedom or anything else if you're dead. Right now we face the very real potential for massive deadly attacks by fanatics who don't give a damn about your rights or freedoms. I think we should fight the most ominous and imminent threat first.

 

[badapple40]

In the context of present national security issues the agonizing over wiretaps and being spied upon is greatly blown far out of proportion. The government is not listening in on you or I...or anyone who is not getting communications from Alqueda or other sworn enemies. They are not scanning everyone's home to see if we are being naughty. They are tracking comm from outside in, and then back.

Since anyone already has the ability to hear or see almost anything we communicate now, I hardly fear our government wasting their time on my rantings. They have far too many real threats to deal with. True, it could become abusive if not monitored. However, I don't want a bunch of political hacks in DC fumbling up our intelligence and causing the death of thousands of people just so they can say "Look how I'm protecting you".

Freedom over life sounds so altruisic, but you can't fight for freedom or anything else if you're dead. Right now we face the very real potential for massive deadly attacks by fanatics who don't give a damn about your rights or freedoms. I think we should fight the most ominous and imminent threat first.

That same line of thought was used to justify our internment of thousands of japanese americans in the second world war. The "trust us" line by the government is little comfort when you are the one under the microscope.

They (our government) won't use it on us... no, never... that is what they thought in germany in world war II also...

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists and I did not speak out because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me.


Pastor ****** Niemöller

The fact that it CAN be abused is enough for me. Who watches the watchers?

They say it is limited to al queda communications. Ollie North also testified before Congress that we were not spending the american taxpayer's money on clandestine operations. But we all know that was not true.

Look, I am being a realist. I am also old enough, educated enough, and experienced enough to know that everything the gub'ment tells the American people is not necessarily the truth.

You blindly trust the government. I do not say not to trust the government. I just say trust, but verify.

I've spend over two decades in uniform in defense of this country. I've seen and done a lot in that time. I've sworn an oath to protect and defend the constitution, and am prepared to lay down my life if called upon. But that does not mean for one minute that I trust everything that comes out of a politician's mouth, or that I for one second support any type of spy program operated domestically, even if it is supposidly targetted only at "the enemy."

 

[notsmartmark]

The same arguement that McCarthy and Hoover made.

 

[dallas702]

That same line of thought was used to justify our internment of thousands of japanese americans in the second world war. The "trust us" line by the government is little comfort when you are the one under the microscope.

They (our government) won't use it on us... no, never... that is what they thought in germany in world war II also...



The fact that it CAN be abused is enough for me. Who watches the watchers?

They say it is limited to al queda communications. Ollie North also testified before Congress that we were not spending the american taxpayer's money on clandestine operations. But we all know that was not true.

Look, I am being a realist. I am also old enough, educated enough, and experienced enough to know that everything the gub'ment tells the American people is not necessarily the truth.

You blindly trust the government. I do not say not to trust the government. I just say trust, but verify.

I've spend over two decades in uniform in defense of this country. I've seen and done a lot in that time. I've sworn an oath to protect and defend the constitution, and am prepared to lay down my life if called upon. But that does not mean for one minute that I trust everything that comes out of a politician's mouth, or that I for one second support any type of spy program operated domestically, even if it is supposidly targetted only at "the enemy."

I grew up with those internees and their children. My grandfather managed their ranches while they were gone. I know there were injustices done, and some lost more than a few years of freedom, but in 20 years I never heard a word about what they had been through. Not from any of them; not from any of the kids I grew up with. My town was almost half Japanese, first second, and third generation. They were the best citizens anyone could ask for. No bitterness. No complaints. Not a word. I didn't even know about it until the JACL brought up another reparations claim many years later. The names of the Japanese who fought in WWII are engraved in our old Veteran's Hall. I can only surmise that they thought it was a necessary part of winning a war that we could not afford to lose. Apparently, it wasn't the worst thing that could happen to them at the time.

 

[stealth2]

You did.



What exactly do you mean by that? Or more accurately what did you expect a reasonable person to assume?


OK I'll give you benefit of the doubt- no corporal punishment. I stand by my statement. I will even revise it to-

Employ negative reinforcement to coerce the freedom into him.
That will make him love your god, your county and you.

You are truly an idiot. Nowhere did I even hint at beating my kids if they refused to stand for the pledge. You decided to ASSume that an unpleasant life at home would obviously involve beatdowns. Au contraire, mon ami.

My home runs on mutual respect. While I am the parent, my kids are always free to discuss and debate things they don't feel are fair or equitable. My rules are not arbitrary or draconian, nor that numerous. They do, however, apply across the board and include their friends. A biggie is that if you expect to be treated respectfully, you need to treat others with same.

As I stated earlier, the American Flag stands for more than just the current administration and the war in Iraq. It also stands for all the folks whose bodies my Dad dragged back from the front lines in Korea. And the folks who died at Normandy. And the ones who gave their lives fighting for our independance from England. The "statement" of sitting out the Pledge disrespects those men and women. Big time. Don't like the way things are now? Son - feel free to go protest, write letters, whatever. But do not defile the sacrifice others have made for very noble reasons.

And yes, life could become unpleasant at home. I am under no obligation to provide cell phone service. Or computer access. Or a place to plug in the mp3. Or any number of things.

Point is - disagree? Go right ahead. Disrespect? Not in my house.

So xylene? Futz off.

 

[StickyFingers]

Geez people...What it boils down to is politics...and just like religion...These are amongst the two topics that people disagree the most.

I completely agree with Badapple. IMO..anyone who doesn't... condones a society and law that I do not want to part of.

I am a rather simple person...It doesn't mean that I don't understand all of the words spoke back and forth..Nor does it mean I don't understand the concepts. I agree with some portions..and disagree with others. But as far as Badapple's posts.... I agree with them all.

Personally, this thread needs to be locked. It has issues that no one can answer but a judge and has been sent on a whole other subject.

The OP recieved her answer...and then some.

 

[dallas702]

But it was fun discussing it.