401K saga continues forever...

[Torakki]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Ca.
My divorce is in it’s 10th year and we can’t agree on my retirement division.
1. I have a 401k with a previous company
2. I have a rollover to my next company.
3. The qdro accountant calculated 2 ways to divide these accounts. Time rule and quasie trace.
Time rule says approximately 47% of each acct. is community. Quasie trace says approximately 23% is community and is based on statements. Qdro accountant also says this method is more accurate. Problem is, I didn’t have every single statement but did have beginning balance at time of marriage, balance when I left that job, scattered statements and current balance. I contributed 3 to 4% during employment but again don’t have every statement to show that.
4. I agree to the 23% (quasie trace) and she agrees on the 47% (time rule) calculation. At one point in time, one account had a $10,000 increase from time of marriage and the “time rule” method would give her $12,000.
5. I’m spending thousands of dollars to save the $10,000 difference in the 2 calculations.
How can I end this in a “fair” way without spending more on lawyers?

Part 2 - She has always claimed that her retirement was depleted during the time of marriage and they would not turn over any retirement staments.
1. I recently spent over $1000 to subpoena her records and have an accounted trace the commingled monies from time of marriage. There’s approximately $47,000 that began at time of marriage. I don’t want to spend even more to find out how her contributions after marriage have effected the community property part.
2. I spent approximately $1000 on a qdro attorney that has gotten me right back to the beginning. His advice was to track the retirement funds during the time periods that I had statements missing. Qdro accountant, said that it didn’t matter and that it’s easy to carry out the calculation to the end.
What should I do about my ex-wife’s retirement account info? She doesn’t know I have it at this time.
Now, her attorney is threatening to make me pay all her attorney fees for this. How can I make this 10 year divorce battle end for a 5 year marriage?
Thanks for any kind of help.

 

[mistoffolees]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Ca.
My divorce is in it’s 10th year and we can’t agree on my retirement division.
1. I have a 401k with a previous company
2. I have a rollover to my next company.
3. The qdro accountant calculated 2 ways to divide these accounts. Time rule and quasie trace.
Time rule says approximately 47% of each acct. is community. Quasie trace says approximately 23% is community and is based on statements. Qdro accountant also says this method is more accurate. Problem is, I didn’t have every single statement but did have beginning balance at time of marriage, balance when I left that job, scattered statements and current balance. I contributed 3 to 4% during employment but again don’t have every statement to show that.
4. I agree to the 23% (quasie trace) and she agrees on the 47% (time rule) calculation. At one point in time, one account had a $10,000 increase from time of marriage and the “time rule” method would give her $12,000.
5. I’m spending thousands of dollars to save the $10,000 difference in the 2 calculations.
How can I end this in a “fair” way without spending more on lawyers?

You could give her what she wants. The difference is minimal and not worth dragging out your divorce for more years and thousands of dollars.

Alternatively, you could ask for a hearing, but my guess is that this wouldn't save you any money and would certainly waste more of your time.

Part 2 - She has always claimed that her retirement was depleted during the time of marriage and they would not turn over any retirement staments.
1. I recently spent over $1000 to subpoena her records and have an accounted trace the commingled monies from time of marriage. There’s approximately $47,000 that began at time of marriage. I don’t want to spend even more to find out how her contributions after marriage have effected the community property part.
2. I spent approximately $1000 on a qdro attorney that has gotten me right back to the beginning. His advice was to track the retirement funds during the time periods that I had statements missing. Qdro accountant, said that it didn’t matter and that it’s easy to carry out the calculation to the end.
What should I do about my ex-wife’s retirement account info? She doesn’t know I have it at this time.

Did she tell the court that the money had been depleted? If so, I would ask the judge to award me 100% of the money due to her fraudulent attempt to hide assets.

Now, her attorney is threatening to make me pay all her attorney fees for this. How can I make this 10 year divorce battle end for a 5 year marriage?
Thanks for any kind of help.

You can make it end by reaching an agreement with her or getting a judge to put a stop to it. Sorry, but there's no simple answer.

 

[nextwife]

Has anyone tried an agreement to split the difference?

 

[LdiJ]

You could give her what she wants. The difference is minimal and not worth dragging out your divorce for more years and thousands of dollars.

Alternatively, you could ask for a hearing, but my guess is that this wouldn't save you any money and would certainly waste more of your time.



Did she tell the court that the money had been depleted? If so, I would ask the judge to award me 100% of the money due to her fraudulent attempt to hide assets.

You can make it end by reaching an agreement with her or getting a judge to put a stop to it. Sorry, but there's no simple answer.

He said that there was 47k at the time they got married. I honestly couldn't quite get what he was trying to explain other than that. That 47k wouldn't be marital.

hwever, if they filed joint tax returns he should be easily able to find out what, if anything she contributed during their 5 year marriage, and what, if anything she withdrew during their 5 year marriage. He just needs to look at their tax records. Any contributions would show on her W2s, and anything withdrawn would show on 1099-Rs (unless of course she merely took loans).

I don't see anything that indicates or proves that she is hiding marital assets. She could have used the marital portion to pay her attorney, which is totally acceptable.

 

[mistoffolees]

He said that there was 47k at the time they got married. I honestly couldn't quite get what he was trying to explain other than that. That 47k wouldn't be marital.

There were two different accounts.

HIS account was either 23% or 47% marital (or something in between).

HER account is different - and that's what he's talking about in the second set of questions.

hwever, if they filed joint tax returns he should be easily able to find out what, if anything she contributed during their 5 year marriage, and what, if anything she withdrew during their 5 year marriage. He just needs to look at their tax records. Any contributions would show on her W2s, and anything withdrawn would show on 1099-Rs (unless of course she merely took loans).

I don't see anything that indicates or proves that she is hiding marital assets. She could have used the marital portion to pay her attorney, which is totally acceptable.

It's not clear. She claimed that her retirement account was depleted. The sense I get from his message (although he didn't say that) was that it wasn't depleted. If she reported to the court that the account was zero and it wasn't, that's perjury and could be grounds for him getting 100% of the account.

OTOH, if the $47 K account truly was depleted, then she has to account for it. If he can show $47 K in marital funds in the account and there is none left, it is up to her to prove that the money was used for legitimate purposes (legal fees and living expenses). He could file a claim and then she would have to prove that the money was used legitimately. And if she bought a house or new car or expensive vacations during that time, it could be problematic.

 

[mistoffolees]

Has anyone tried an agreement to split the difference?

Apparently not. People would rather spend 10 years and tens of thousands of dollars rather than give up $2,000 in their retirement accounts.

 

[Torakki]

Wow! Thanks for the great responses. Yea, it gets confusing so I'll try to clearify.
I don't believe she ever stated in court that her accounts were depleted. But, I said in court, that she invested more then me and she never rebuted it. I believe I have at least two letters from her attorny that state that the accounts were depleted at time of marriage and they would not be forwarding any statments. I have all her retirment account statments during time of marriage so I can see all her contributions. I subpenoed "all" her statments after they said the funds were gone and those statments show a total of $47K over 7 accounts that originated during our marriage. No loans or withdraws. This is current day statments. All her retirment was earned during time of marrigae an not before. (she wasn't working before we got married). Would the fraudulant letters from her attorney be worth anything in court? I was thinking of folding but having her accounts awarded to me sounds tempting. She has purged her self in court before, falsifying a previous divorce document but the judge ignored it, (after I spent approx. $4000 to prove it).
I was also thinking of meeting half way between the 47% and 23% but the last letter from her attorney ask for my recent statments, they'll do the calculation and "we will agree" or it's further litigation. Sounds like she's not flexible. She makes a lot more then me and married a CEO so money is no issue for her (husband).
Thanks again for all the input.....

 

[LdiJ]

Wow! Thanks for the great responses. Yea, it gets confusing so I'll try to clearify.
I don't believe she ever stated in court that her accounts were depleted. But, I said in court, that she invested more then me and she never rebuted it. I believe I have at least two letters from her attorny that state that the accounts were depleted at time of marriage and they would not be forwarding any statments. I have all her retirment account statments during time of marriage so I can see all her contributions. I subpenoed "all" her statments after they said the funds were gone and those statments show a total of $47K over 7 accounts that originated during our marriage. No loans or withdraws. This is current day statments. All her retirment was earned during time of marrigae an not before. (she wasn't working before we got married). Would the fraudulant letters from her attorney be worth anything in court? I was thinking of folding but having her accounts awarded to me sounds tempting. She has purged her self in court before, falsifying a previous divorce document but the judge ignored it, (after I spent approx. $4000 to prove it).
I was also thinking of meeting half way between the 47% and 23% but the last letter from her attorney ask for my recent statments, they'll do the calculation and "we will agree" or it's further litigation. Sounds like she's not flexible. She makes a lot more then me and married a CEO so money is no issue for her (husband).
Thanks again for all the input.....

Don't count on being awarded 100% of her accounts. Your case is not that egregious.

You stated the following facts:

That the amount of money in her accounts is 47k
That there are 7 accounts that originated during the marriage
That she was not working before the marriage
That the marriage was 5 years long

This doesn't make sense.

That is an enormous amount of retirement money to amass in just 5 years. That is more retirement ACCOUNTS than most people would amass in a lifetime, let alone 5 years.

Therefore I think that there is a real possibility that there have been rollovers, and that there is not 47k, but a much smaller amount (if any) that perhaps has been rolled over multiple times. There is also the possibility that some or all of that money is from inherited retirement assets, which would be separate property.

I will repeat. Her W2s for the last 5 years would reflect any contributions she made to 401ks. Any 1099Rs would reflect any distributions she received. Did your wife earn enough money in the last 5 years that she actually could have contributed 47k to retirement accounts?

 

[stealth2]

How can I make this 10 year divorce battle end for a 5 year marriage?
Thanks for any kind of help.

Really? You have spent twice as long as the marriage to get... what? There comes a point when a rational person cuts their losses and moves on. It's LONG past time for both of you to do so.

 

[nextwife]

Don't count on being awarded 100% of her accounts. Your case is not that egregious.

You stated the following facts:

That the amount of money in her accounts is 47k
That there are 7 accounts that originated during the marriage
That she was not working before the marriage
That the marriage was 5 years long

This doesn't make sense.

That is an enormous amount of retirement money to amass in just 5 years. That is more retirement ACCOUNTS than most people would amass in a lifetime, let alone 5 years.

Therefore I think that there is a real possibility that there have been rollovers, and that there is not 47k, but a much smaller amount (if any) that perhaps has been rolled over multiple times. There is also the possibility that some or all of that money is from inherited retirement assets, which would be separate property.

I will repeat. Her W2s for the last 5 years would reflect any contributions she made to 401ks. Any 1099Rs would reflect any distributions she received. Did your wife earn enough money in the last 5 years that she actually could have contributed 47k to retirement accounts?

47k in five years is not that ridiculous. Many of us take the max 15% contribution.

47k /5 years= 9.4k per year (if no growth)

$62700 x 15%= $9405

So, if she earned in the low 60s, it is more than possible to have deferred 47 k in five years. I've accrued 32k in less than 4 years at my new job's 401k and make way, way less than that.

 

[Bali Hai]

Wow! Thanks for the great responses. Yea, it gets confusing so I'll try to clearify.
I don't believe she ever stated in court that her accounts were depleted. But, I said in court, that she invested more then me and she never rebuted it. I believe I have at least two letters from her attorny that state that the accounts were depleted at time of marriage and they would not be forwarding any statments.

Then it's time for the judge to order the documentation produced. (I know, it's easier said than done)

I have all her retirment account statments during time of marriage so I can see all her contributions. I subpenoed "all" her statments after they said the funds were gone and those statments show a total of $47K over 7 accounts that originated during our marriage. No loans or withdraws. This is current day statments. All her retirment was earned during time of marrigae an not before. (she wasn't working before we got married). Would the fraudulant letters from her attorney be worth anything in court?

Not if the judge ignores them.

I was thinking of folding but having her accounts awarded to me sounds tempting. She has purged her self in court before, falsifying a previous divorce document but the judge ignored it, (after I spent approx. $4000 to prove it).

You should have consulted here before spending that 4 grand. Judges rarely if at all whack the wife for lying.

I was also thinking of meeting half way between the 47% and 23% but the last letter from her attorney ask for my recent statments, they'll do the calculation and "we will agree" or it's further litigation.

This doesn't sound good for you. My guess is that her lawyer and the judge are buddies. Your attorney or previous attorney very likely knew this.

Sounds like she's not flexible. She makes a lot more then me and married a CEO so money is no issue for her (husband).
Thanks again for all the input.....

I know what your position is. You feel that you are being held to a higher accountability by the court than she is and you're very likely correct about that.

Just from the sound of the way you've been treated by the judge and her attorney's saber rattling, you're going to lose. You have two choices, you can throw in the towel, or you can go down fighting.

 

[LdiJ]

47k in five years is not that ridiculous. Many of us take the max 15% contribution.

47k /5 years= 9.4k per year (if no growth)

$62700 x 15%= $9405

So, if she earned in the low 60s, it is more than possible to have deferred 47 k in five years. I've accrued 32k in less than 4 years at my new job's 401k and make way, way less than that.

I don't disagree, but apparently she did not work prior to the marriage, therefore its not all that likely that she made that kind of money. That is why I asked him if she actually made enough money to make that kind of contribution in 5 years.

 

[mistoffolees]

I don't disagree, but apparently she did not work prior to the marriage, therefore its not all that likely that she made that kind of money. That is why I asked him if she actually made enough money to make that kind of contribution in 5 years.

Remember that they've been fighting for 10 years and married 5 years before that, so the money would have been in there during the boom years in the 90's when double digit growth rates were the norm.

Besides, it is not uncommon for the second wage earner to put a very large portion of their income into their 401K because they're living off the other spouse's income. My ex put the max into her 401K every year - plus company match. If we assume a 50% company match (common in the late 90's) and a 15-20% annual growth rate, she would have only needed to put in about $4-5 K per year in order to end up with $47 K (I haven't done the math - that's just a rough estimate).

Bottom line, though, is that they should have demanded those statements at the beginning. It may or may not be too late to demand them now. They've been fighting for 10 years over an amount of money that probably doesn't even cover the legal expenses they've wasted. Time to cut your losses and move on.

 

[nextwife]

IMHO, he should have demanded proof of liguidation and where the funds went. Even if she took distributions during the marriage, rather than rolling over the funds to hide them, there are both potential tax consequences to any jt returns they may have filed that could impact him and the fact that marital accounts are marital property, and if she moved them in anticipation of divorce or to hide them during the divorce or to support a lover, it is all important information.

Merely claiming : the funds were removed during the marriage is insufficient. He has every right to ask for proof of where those funds went. I REALLY hate the "What I earn is mine, but what you earn is ours" approach that a surprising number of married persons (sadly, I see more that are female) seem to have.

 

[nextwife]

I don't disagree, but apparently she did not work prior to the marriage, therefore its not all that likely that she made that kind of money. That is why I asked him if she actually made enough money to make that kind of contribution in 5 years.

Who says? I see file loan applications all the time (mostly from foreclosure files), and an amazing number of recent college grads, especially back then, were given HUGE salaries right out of school. I know a young women with only a Bachelors Degree who was making $100 k at her first job out of college working for a Wall Street firm.