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A branch of my tree fell in my neigbor's hot tub causing minor damage. Act of god?

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racer72

Senior Member
rmet4nzkx said:
Under
CALIFORNIA CODES
EVIDENCE CODE
SECTION 623

623. Whenever a party has, by his own statement or conduct, intentionally and deliberately led another to believe a particular thing true and to act upon such belief, he is not, in any litigation arising out of such statement or conduct, permitted to contradict it.
I fail to see how this statute remotely applies to the case unless he is called to testify in a court case concerning the matter. The OP's actions in removing the branch provided no proof of culpibility for liability. One of 4 actions must have occured before the OP be held liable for the damage:
1. A person acts intentionally to cause the damage. Nope, didn't happen.

2. A person acts knowingly in a manner that could cause the damage. Nope again.

3. A person acts recklessly in a manner that could cause the damage. Hmm, nope again.

4. A person acts negligently in a manner to cause or inflict damage. The OP did not throw the tree branch on the hot tub.

Without more information, there is the possibility that the hot tub owner could prove one of the above, this would require and investigation by those familiar with such cases and the testimony by experts. There are also other questions that need to be answered before any one could give a difinitive answer to the OP's question.
A. Did the neighbor express any concerns in the past concering the tree branch?
B. Did the OP disregard any previous notification about the tree that there may be a problem?
C. Did the OP at anytime express a concern with the tree in question that it could be a hazard due to falling branches?

The OP is also correct in his assumption that removing the tree branch is not an admission of liability. The act of mitigating any future damage can never be used as case for liability. If the owner of the hot tub removed the branch, would this action be proof that he accepted liabilty for the damage? Of course not, the street goes both ways. I stand by my discersion in my previous post that the OP should not be held liable for the damage.
 


blau

Member
Answer to the questions

"A. Did the neighbor express any concerns in the past concering the tree branch?
B. Did the OP disregard any previous notification about the tree that there may be a problem?
C. Did the OP at anytime express a concern with the tree in question that it could be a hazard due to falling branches?"



A. No
B. No
C. No
 
racer72 said:
I fail to see how this statute remotely applies to the case unless he is called to testify in a court case concerning the matter. The OP's actions in removing the branch provided no proof of culpibility for liability. One of 4 actions must have occured before the OP be held liable for the damage:
1. A person acts intentionally to cause the damage. Nope, didn't happen.

2. A person acts knowingly in a manner that could cause the damage. Nope again.

3. A person acts recklessly in a manner that could cause the damage. Hmm, nope again.

4. A person acts negligently in a manner to cause or inflict damage. The OP did not throw the tree branch on the hot tub.

Without more information, there is the possibility that the hot tub owner could prove one of the above, this would require and investigation by those familiar with such cases and the testimony by experts. There are also other questions that need to be answered before any one could give a difinitive answer to the OP's question.
A. Did the neighbor express any concerns in the past concering the tree branch?
B. Did the OP disregard any previous notification about the tree that there may be a problem?
C. Did the OP at anytime express a concern with the tree in question that it could be a hazard due to falling branches?

The OP is also correct in his assumption that removing the tree branch is not an admission of liability. The act of mitigating any future damage can never be used as case for liability. If the owner of the hot tub removed the branch, would this action be proof that he accepted liabilty for the damage? Of course not, the street goes both ways. I stand by my discersion in my previous post that the OP should not be held liable for the damage.

racer:

Well said.
 

rmet4nzkx

Senior Member
divgradcurl said:
Agreed. racer72 is dead-on, moburkes and rmet4nzkx are dead-wrong.
How can I be dead wrong if OP doesn't know whether the tree is healthy or not or what kind of tree it is? Dont you think the insurance company is going to check? In our neighborhood a tree service was called by the HOA to inspect the trees, they did and removed several, about 2 weeks later one split down the middle and was punky inside, it had been inspected, and had a history of healthy branches breaking off months earlier. The tree was removed and the roots ground away, about a month later a neighboring tree of the same sort that had been reinspected fell over at the base, also rotten in the core, when they came to remove that tree and the thirs tree of the same variety that neighbored the original fallen tree was cut down as a precaution and it WAS healthy! Now if Arborists or tree services can miss a sick tree with falling linbs OP who is not an arborist cannot be held to the standard of an expert in California which is a Frye state, if the neighbor's insurance comany questions the health of the tree. That is why I asked the quesitons I did. Now if the tree had been an Oak or other protected tree, that might mitigate or if it was one of the trees being ravaged by disease, that might also mitigate it, but OP doesn't even know what kind of tree it was. We also don't know what local ordinances might apply in addition to CALIFORNIA CODES - PUBLIC RESOURCES CODE SECTION 4291-4299, California Urban Forestry Act of 1978, Sudden Oak Death Management Act of 2002 which includes species other than oaks and includes at least 10 counties.
 

fairisfair

Senior Member
here she goes again! :rolleyes: Of course racer is right, the OP would have had to have knowledge that the tree was unhealthy and likely to cause damage or injury. Or the neighbor will have to prove that he should have had such knowledge.

Now if he had gone running next door screaming, oh my G__, I knew that tree was gonna fall on somebody someday, let me clean that up for you.

Well, now that is a different story isn't it??
 
Last edited:

divgradcurl

Senior Member
fairisfair said:
here she goes again! :rolleyes: Of course racer is right, the OP would have had to have knowledge that the tree was unhealthy and likely to cause damage or injury. Or the neighbor will have to prove that he should have had such knowledge.

Now if he had gone running next door screaming, oh my G__, I knew that tree was gonna fall on somebody someday, let me clean that up for you.

Well, now that is a different story isn't it??
Exactly. What an arborist might know is irrelevant in this case. What a HOA might know is irrelevant to the OP. What happened in rmet4nzkx's neighborhood is irrelevant in this case. The standard is that the homeowner "knew or should have known" that the tree posed a safety hazard, not "should have checked to see" or "should have had an arborist come out and check."

How can I be dead wrong if OP doesn't know whether the tree is healthy or not or what kind of tree it is?
Because that's not the test for determining liability in this case. Think about it -- if a property owner were to be held strictly liable for any damages that a tree might cause, do you think any homeowner's insurance company would insure a property with trees on it? It doesn't matter if the OP knows whether the tree is healthy or not -- only that the OP had no reason to believe that the tree posed a hazard.
 

rmet4nzkx

Senior Member
divgradcurl said:
Exactly. What an arborist might know is irrelevant in this case. What a HOA might know is irrelevant to the OP. What happened in rmet4nzkx's neighborhood is irrelevant in this case. The standard is that the homeowner "knew or should have known" that the tree posed a safety hazard, not "should have checked to see" or "should have had an arborist come out and check."



Because that's not the test for determining liability in this case. Think about it -- if a property owner were to be held strictly liable for any damages that a tree might cause, do you think any homeowner's insurance company would insure a property with trees on it? It doesn't matter if the OP knows whether the tree is healthy or not -- only that the OP had no reason to believe that the tree posed a hazard.
If you read OP's post they cut down two trees that were in his opinion, diseased or dangerous but failed to have an expert inspect the remaining trees after, so he would or should have known that there was the possibility that the remaining trees were also damaged or diseased, even the removal of the damaged trees may have affected the health of the tree that is subsequently dropping it's branches. So he may be liable for the damage even if the tree were healthy if he didn't take reasonable care with this tree as he had with the others in his yard. We don't have all the facts so it is possible that OP may have some liability in the event that the tree is diseased or damaged.

Please see the following for the applicible CA rule and reference to case law.
http://www.igin.com/Landscaping/1102outonalimb.html
By Dr.Walter Barrows

It’s a beautiful day, and you decide to take advantage of the sunshine and fresh air by taking a walk, maybe just in your neighborhood, or in a nearby park. As you’re strolling along, enjoying the greenery, you hear a sharp, cracking sound, and look up to see a branch falling from a tree down the road, smashing the windshield of the car parked beneath it.

During the hot summer weather, the phenomenon known to ar-borists as “summer limb drop” takes place in numerous species of trees, including the common oak and eucalyptus trees. This type of limb drop generally occurs in the warmer climates where the newly formed branches grow very fast. In some cases, improperly topped tree branches are a major starting point for this type of limb drop. In other cases, cracks or decay may be a factor.

The jagged end of the limb
For example, in northern California a large limb that fell onto the highway involved limb drop. It was dark at the time and had been raining. Tragically, the jagged end of the limb broke through the windshield of a passing car, killing the driver and seriously injuring the passenger.

The court determined that the tree was part of a row of eucalyptus trees planted along the highway, and that the defendants knew that limbs had been falling from these trees for years. They also knew that the particular limb with which the plaintiffs’ car collided on that dark night had previously extended over the highway for some 30 feet.

A tree surgeon familiar with the area testified that the limbs of the tree involved were healthy and that he saw no evidence of rot, decay or disease. He did state, however, that in Napa County, California, eucalyptus trees grow very fast and become “rangy” — or, as Webster’s New World Dictionary so aptly defines that word — “long-limbed and slender.” The tree surgeon added that these eucalyptus limbs have a tendency to break during the hot days of summer because of the excessive flow of sap and, in the early fall, with the first rains and winds; and that the trees will drop their limbs — even good, healthy ones.
He further testified that the standard method of preventing eucalyptus trees from becoming hazardous is to top them and shorten their limbs so as to reduce the amount of leverage at the points where the limbs are apt to break; and that he performed this service for 10 or 15 clients a year.

The defendant testified she had been told that eucalyptus trees drop their limbs. She added that, as far as she could see, her trees were healthy. However, she admitted that she’d had no work done on them by a tree surgeon for five years, although she well knew that eucalyptus limbs do fall at times.
The court found that the row of eucalyptus trees planted alongside the highway constituted a “non-natural or artificial condition” and stated the following rule: “A possessor of land is subject to liability for bodily harm caused to others outside the land (which included the adjacent highway) by a structure or other artificial condition thereon, which the possessor realizes or should realize as involving an unreasonable risk of such harm if …(a) the possessor has created the condition or …(b) the possessor when he takes possession knows or should know the condition which was created before he took possession.”
As the court pointed out, the distinguishing factor in this case is the natural propensity of healthy, untrimmed eucalyptus limbs to fall to the ground, and the defendant’s knowledge of such propensity. The rule in California is that a landowner is liable for conditions occurring where he fails to exercise reasonable care to prevent an unreasonable risk of harm to users of the highway from trees on his property.
 

divgradcurl

Senior Member
If you read OP's post they cut down two trees that were in his opinion, diseased or dangerous but failed to have an expert inspect the remaining trees after, so he would or should have known that there was the possibility that the remaining trees were also damaged or diseased, even the removal of the damaged trees may have affected the health of the tree that is subsequently dropping it's branches.
And, and as you've pointed out in your posts, the OP is not an expert, so his "opinion" as to which trees were diseased or dangerous and which were not is irrelevant -- the only thing that matters is if he did KNOW that the particular tree posed a hazard, or that a reasonable person (subjective standard, not objective standard) should have known that the tree posed a hazard. He is not an expert, so his "opinion" really isn't relevant. He get's held to the "reaonable person" standard.

Please see the following for the applicible CA rule and reference to case law.
Where are the references? Is Dr. Barrows an attorney? Have their been any new cases since 2002? Any changes in statutes since 2002?

The rule in California is that a landowner is liable for conditions occurring where he fails to exercise reasonable care to prevent an unreasonable risk of harm to users of the highway from trees on his property.
Wouldn't checking on his trees regularly be "reasonable care?" Or does "reasonable care" require an arborist to visit on a regular basis?
 

rmet4nzkx

Senior Member
divgradcurl said:
And, and as you've pointed out in your posts, the OP is not an expert, so his "opinion" as to which trees were diseased or dangerous and which were not is irrelevant -- the only thing that matters is if he did KNOW that the particular tree posed a hazard, or that a reasonable person (subjective standard, not objective standard) should have known that the tree posed a hazard. He is not an expert, so his "opinion" really isn't relevant. He get's held to the "reaonable person" standard.



Where are the references? Is Dr. Barrows an attorney? Have their been any new cases since 2002? Any changes in statutes since 2002?



Wouldn't checking on his trees regularly be "reasonable care?" Or does "reasonable care" require an arborist to visit on a regular basis?
That is why I kept trying to find out if he knew what type of tree it was, if it is one subject to the summer time problem or if there was a recent summer rain that may have caused the problem the aborist would have been able to war, while these are healthy trees linb drop can be a problem and we suggest pruning suseptible trees and then he could have whom ever trim the trees. In Ca we are having serious problems with certain varieties of trees suddenly dying. As in the article, the property owner wasn't an expert and the tree was healthy, but they had known that limbs sometimes drop and OP had already chopped down trees so he would or should have known to take reasonable care. Oak trees are subject to this summer limb drop and many jurisdicitons have restrictions of the care and maintenance of these trees and it is possible that the county or UC ag extention or USFS etc will have someone who can inspect the trees, even the native plant society will come and inspect.

The next branch that falls may hit him on the head.
 

blau

Member
Just to add some clearfy the facts.

The reson I took down the two tree on the other side of the property. Is because those trees were in my opinion dying and could cause a hazzard some day, and they is why they were chop down last year. In my opinion before the accident the tree who's branch fell is 100% healthy and will remain so for the forseeable future that is why I did not chop it down.
 

rmet4nzkx

Senior Member
blau said:
Just to add some clearfy the facts.

The reson I took down the two tree on the other side of the property. Is because those trees were in my opinion dying and could cause a hazzard some day, and they is why they were chop down last year. In my opinion before the accident the tree who's branch fell is 100% healthy and will remain so for the forseeable future that is why I did not chop it down.
In what county do your live?
 

blau

Member
rmet4nzkx said:
In what county do your live?

What do you mean? I live in california as stated in my previous posting as you have mention.

Is it possible that you could expercise care and still be wrong? Yes.

Does that make you liable? In my case here of course not.

It seem to me that you don't understand the law, or just want to be a smart ass, or just want to play devil advocate.

I a o.k. with that just incase my neighbor's insurance people are like you.
 

rmet4nzkx

Senior Member
blau said:
What do you mean? I live in california as stated in my previous posting as you have mention.

Is it possible that you could expercise care and still be wrong? Yes.

Does that make you liable? In my case here of course not.

It seem to me that you don't understand the law, or just want to be a smart ass, or just want to play devil advocate.

I a o.k. with that just incase my neighbor's insurance people are like you.
You don't know in what county you live? I am trying to help you! Let me know what county you are in and I will get you a referal to someone to ID the tree for you and let you know what you can expect so you don't have a branch fall and hit you on the head!
 

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