Allowed time for seller to transfer title / record deed?

[draco]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)?

 

[justalayman]

the seller doesn't record the deed. Either the buyer, or what typically happens is the closing agency handles actions such as that, along with disbursing the money to the various creditors.

Son't know if you had posted more than that. It seems to be a common problem of first posts disappearing but regardless, a bit more info would help.

 

[draco]

Located in Minnesota.

Thanks for the info. I did post more. The property was bank owned, and the bank nor the closing company are much help. Just saying they'll get to it. My real estate agent says just wait. But it's been over a month and I'm tired of waiting. So I was wondering if there are any laws regarding how long they have to do it?

 

[nanu156]

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=386.375

386.375 TRANSFER AND STORAGE OF ABSTRACTS.

Subdivision 1.Responsibility to transfer. (a) A person holding an abstract of title to real estate located in Minnesota shall, at a closing of a sale of the property to which the abstract pertains, make a written offer to transfer the abstract of title to the mortgagor or fee owner at no charge to the mortgagor or fee owner. If the offer is accepted, the abstract must be transferred at the closing unless the abstract of title is being held after the closing for issuance of a final title opinion or policy of title insurance in which case the holder has a reasonable period of time to transfer the abstract.
(b) A person holding an abstract of title to real estate located in Minnesota shall, within ten days of receipt of a written request from the mortgagor or fee owner of the property to which the abstract pertains, transfer the abstract of title to the mortgagor or fee owner at no charge, other than postage, to the mortgagor or fee owner. If the abstract of title is being held after a closing for issuance of a final title opinion or policy of title insurance, the holder has a reasonable period of time to transfer the abstract.

(c) If a person holding an abstract of title to real estate located in Minnesota fails to comply with the requirements of this subdivision, the mortgagor or fee owner of the property may have an abstract of title made at the expense of the last known person holding the abstract of title, and is also entitled to collect actual civil damages of up to $500 from the person last known to hold the abstract of title.

They have 10 days unless the title company has causation to hold it up.

you contact the company who did the title work on your behalf, not the closer... (who you may mean notary company or title company by this)

 

[justalayman]

Not that I am aware of or could find.


Is there an issue because it hasn't been recorded? A month really isn't that long in this type of thing. Some closing offices only record deeds every so often so if you hit the beginning of that cycle, you would have to wait until the end of the cycle, whatever that happens to be.

 

[justalayman]

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=386.375

386.375 TRANSFER AND STORAGE OF ABSTRACTS.

Subdivision 1.Responsibility to transfer. (a) A person holding an abstract of title to real estate located in Minnesota shall, at a closing of a sale of the property to which the abstract pertains, make a written offer to transfer the abstract of title to the mortgagor or fee owner at no charge to the mortgagor or fee owner. If the offer is accepted, the abstract must be transferred at the closing unless the abstract of title is being held after the closing for issuance of a final title opinion or policy of title insurance in which case the holder has a reasonable period of time to transfer the abstract.
(b) A person holding an abstract of title to real estate located in Minnesota shall, within ten days of receipt of a written request from the mortgagor or fee owner of the property to which the abstract pertains, transfer the abstract of title to the mortgagor or fee owner at no charge, other than postage, to the mortgagor or fee owner. If the abstract of title is being held after a closing for issuance of a final title opinion or policy of title insurance, the holder has a reasonable period of time to transfer the abstract.

(c) If a person holding an abstract of title to real estate located in Minnesota fails to comply with the requirements of this subdivision, the mortgagor or fee owner of the property may have an abstract of title made at the expense of the last known person holding the abstract of title, and is also entitled to collect actual civil damages of up to $500 from the person last known to hold the abstract of title.

They have 10 days unless the title company has causation to hold it up.

you contact the company who did the title work on your behalf, not the closer... (who you may mean notary company or title company by this)

that's it, show me up.

so nanu, what is the longest you had to wait for a title insurance policy to be issued? There is obviously an exception to delay for that purpose. Also, "reasonable" is a really loose specification of time.



in my area, the closing agency is who typically records the deed. That might be the bank, the title company, or a lawyer or even a few other entities that might be involved. While the closing agency also creates the deed, it isn't always that way. My last purchase I wrote the deed and hired a local title company to hold the closing and complete the details of the sale.

 

[nanu156]

that's it, show me up.

so nanu, what is the longest you had to wait for a title insurance policy to be issued? There is obviously an exception to delay for that purpose. Also, "reasonable" is a really loose specification of time.



in my area, the closing agency is who typically records the deed. That might be the bank, the title company, or a lawyer or even a few other entities that might be involved. While the closing agency also creates the deed, it isn't always that way. My last purchase I wrote the deed and hired a local title company to hold the closing and complete the details of the sale.

Dude top result on a google search, didn't even use any special mortgage databases.

Title company ALWAYS records the deeds, oh unless it is an Atty state. Then the Atty does it. Delaware, South Carolina, Georgia, West Virginia, Massachusetts, Mississippi and Vermont need attorneys to do the actual closing.

This was not an atty state. The title company is responsible.

Couple things... First the title company prepares the title and gets the documents to the clerks office to be filed.... Then the clerk is responsible to file, some counties are backed up as far as 6 months.

With out in depth knowledge of your situation I would say that your wait at the moment seems normal. It's also purchase season, in a month or two title companies will slow way down and things will start to happen faster.

If you are looking for FASTER results (still at a loss to why you are concerned about this, as your closing documents clearly show you have ownership interests in this home) you can send the title company a fax or letter requesting an update and eta on the filing/recording of the homes title.

Typically "Title" is the preferred terminology, I would use it in lieu of deed in your fax, just makes you sound like a bit of a noob It would be akin to telling a LO that your "APR is 2.875%" when your apr is actually higher that is your note rate, we know what you mean but it conveys a bit of "noob'ish'ness"

Can I ask why you are concerned about this? Do you have plans to re-sell the home immediately? Please note that if you have held ownership for <12 months it's going to be very difficult to sell this property to anyone who needs a mortgage to buy it, it has to be "seasoned" for 12 months in order for a buyer to get a mortgage for an amount that is greater than the previous purchase price.

Well that about ties that up.

30 days to 6 months are typical time frames. I am unsure of the county of record on this, I don't hold a MN license at the moment.

 

[justalayman]

nanu156;3087569]

Title company ALWAYS records the deeds, oh unless it is an Atty state. Then the Atty does it. Delaware, South Carolina, Georgia, West Virginia, Massachusetts, Mississippi and Vermont need attorneys to do the actual closing.

This was not an atty state. The title company is responsible.

and if you don't use a title company or use them for closing? Not trying to be obtuse, quite serious in fact. I have had sales where there was no title company involved. Lawyers in some, just banks in some. Some, just two people and no other participants.

Couple things... First the title company prepares the title and gets the documents to the clerks office to be filed.... Then the clerk is responsible to file, some counties are backed up as far as 6 months.

With out in depth knowledge of your situation I would say that your wait at the moment seems normal. It's also purchase season, in a month or two title companies will slow way down and things will start to happen faster.

very good points

Typically "Title" is the preferred terminology, I would use it in lieu of deed in your fax, just makes you sound like a bit of a noob

ya lost me on that one. If one is speaking about a deed being registered, then that is what one should ask about. Registering a deed may not even convey title. There are multiple reasons a deed would be registered other than to convey title. Obviously in this situation it is being used to convey title but the fact is, one does not register title. One registers a deed.

Can I ask why you are concerned about this? Do you have plans to re-sell the home immediately? Please note that if you have held ownership for <12 months it's going to be very difficult to sell this property to anyone who needs a mortgage to buy it, it has to be "seasoned" for 12 months in order for a buyer to get a mortgage for an amount that is greater than the previous purchase price.

while you obviously have a lot more experience than I do in this arena, I disagree with you. There are many investors that flip homes in less than 12 months. The increase in price/value has to have some justification but a justified increase can support an increased mortgage value.

 

[nanu156]

while you obviously have a lot more experience than I do in this arena, I disagree with you. There are many investors that flip homes in less than 12 months. The increase in price/value has to have some justification but a justified increase can support an increased mortgage value.

Sigh... This is what people think isn't it?? Sigh.... There are some exceptions to this rule, that are typically cumbersome and require heavy documentation.

1st the investor can't be some dude trying his hand in the market. It has to be a legal investment company.
2nd the "improvements" have to be documents and done by legitimate contractors. Expect to provide receipts.
3rd a second appraisal is typically required
4th it is considered layered risk on the loan, so an iffy borrower could be denied due to what a lender perceives as "layered risk"
5th more often then not these loans get denied.

Flippers tend to season the homes for a minimum of 6 months. Or they tend to do rent-to-own deals (also filled with pit-falls and should be discussed with a licensed LO in the state of the property so that they are handled in a way that the RTO is actually documented and thus usable supporting documentation)

Finally (personal note to JAL) you think loan officers are sketchy and scummy... You told me so. But property investors (BTW HUGE DEFAULT RATES!!! Largely to blame for the crashes in speculative markets like Az, Nv, Fl and Ca) are totally cool?? There is so much regulation in my industry that it is ridiculous, even when we were less regulated we were still significantly more regulated than property investors.

In any event... Flipping is not for the cash strapped or faint of heart. One should have the assets to purchase then gut/remodel/improve the home and to wait on re-coup for a minimum of 18months, or they should not attempt to play this game.

This buyer had an agent, they had a closing company, they are asking about title not deed.

 

[justalayman]

nanu156;3087627]Sigh... This is what people think isn't it?? Sigh.... There are some exceptions to this rule, that are typically cumbersome and require heavy documentation.

What some people think?

No, what some people experience

1st the investor can't be some dude trying his hand in the market. It has to be a legal investment company.

Oh come on. I know a half dozen guys that do this regularly that are simply individuals.

2nd the "improvements" have to be documents and done by legitimate contractors. Expect to provide receipts.

hasn't been required of those I am familiar with.

3rd a second appraisal is typically required

that is an obvious requirement and this is how the value is established.

4th it is considered layered risk on the loan, so an iffy borrower could be denied due to what a lender perceives as "layered risk"

lenders can be ***** folk. There are often unseen pressures that alter their practices. It's hard to make such a blanket statement though. The market is dynamic and can change nearly instantaneously.

5th more often then not these loans get denied.

You must work in some really tough markets.

Finally (personal note to JAL) you think loan officers are sketchy and scummy... You told me so

.I did not. Heck, I have a close friend that used to be one. He is an exceptionally nice guy. There are some that are scummy and sketchy but not all are.

I suspect you are referring to my statements about the market crash issue. I do have a problem with anybody that was a willing, and especially knowing, participant is lending money to people knowing it should not have been done. Back when I was in the RE market balloon mortgages were the big thing. I saw it as morally wrong, not when used properly but when they were marketed to first time buyers who did not understand them and it was obvious they would not improve their position in life enough to qualify for a more conventional mortgage when the balloon popped. It was simply a means to sell a house and a mortgage to people that I knew were only going to be killed in 2,3, or 5 years when the balloon became due. I saw it as reprehensible even if it was legally allowable.

But property investors (BTW HUGE DEFAULT RATES!!! Largely to blame for the crashes in speculative markets like Az, Nv, Fl and Ca) are totally cool??

there are good and bad. You, being in the business where you are surely see a lot of each but I'm not talking about the investors money here but the subsequent purchaser. Most investors I know are either borrowing from an established pool of pre-approved funds or not borrowing any money at all. The homes being purchased by the investors are not generally eligible for standard mortgages or the source of the purchase does not allow for the mortgage system to be utilized (tax sales, mortgage auctions, etc.)

In any event... Flipping is not for the cash strapped or faint of heart. One should have the assets to purchase then gut/remodel/improve the home and to wait on re-coup for a minimum of 18months, or they should not attempt to play this game.

the truth is, it usually takes more than the 6 months and often more than the 12 months to rehab a home so the seasoning time is often not an issue. I do agree with the cash strapped or faint of heart statement.

This buyer had an agent, they had a closing company, they are asking about title not deed.

I missed that. I saw the question as why hasn't my deed been registered. That fact is, OP is already the owner of title even if it has not been registered. The registration of the deed is merely the physical publication of that fact.

 

[nanu156]

What some people think?

No, what some people experience

Some people meaning general public looking to make their "fortune" with a measly 5k etc... I hear this junk all day every day. bleh...

Oh come on. I know a half dozen guys that do this regularly that are simply individuals.

Betcha betcha they have licenses, and are legitimate investors, of some sort... Especially in declining markets like Michigan, Indiana, and Illinois...

hasn't been required of those I am familiar with.

It is the requirement of BofA, Citi, GMAC, Wells... So that's what is dictating the market... It has been dictating the market for some time now...

that is an obvious requirement and this is how the value is established.

This btw refrences TWO appraisals of these properties, by two companies at a cost to the BUYER

lenders can be ***** folk. There are often unseen pressures that alter their practices. It's hard to make such a blanket statement though. The market is dynamic and can change nearly instantaneously.

Sure sure... They are typically changing away from the interests of investors...

You must work in some really tough markets.

I work nationally. Some markets are worse than others... Ca, Az, Fl, Mi, Oh, Nv are all states that are considered "tough markets" although I would say the industry is just "tough" all around and has been since 2006...

I suspect you are referring to my statements about the market crash issue. I do have a problem with anybody that was a willing, and especially knowing, participant is lending money to people knowing it should not have been done. Back when I was in the RE market balloon mortgages were the big thing. I saw it as morally wrong, not when used properly but when they were marketed to first time buyers who did not understand them and it was obvious they would not improve their position in life enough to qualify for a more conventional mortgage when the balloon popped. It was simply a means to sell a house and a mortgage to people that I knew were only going to be killed in 2,3, or 5 years when the balloon became due. I saw it as reprehensible even if it was legally allowable.

I suspect you mean "ARM" mortgages. Balloons weren't big... in the 90's or even the 2000's... ARMS were however. BTW if you had an ARM in 2003 your rate is lower today than it was in 2003, it never went extremely high (8's or so was the peak) (unless we are discussing the sub-prime markets they started in double digits to begin with)

there are good and bad. You, being in the business where you are surely see a lot of each but I'm not talking about the investors money here but the subsequent purchaser. Most investors I know are either borrowing from an established pool of pre-approved funds or not borrowing any money at all. The homes being purchased by the investors are not generally eligible for standard mortgages or the source of the purchase does not allow for the mortgage system to be utilized (tax sales, mortgage auctions, etc.)

We are talking about purchasers, the purchasers in these situations are typically the ones who get smacked when they find out (typically unbeknownst to them) that a home is not lendable at its current purchase price.

the truth is, it usually takes more than the 6 months and often more than the 12 months to rehab a home so the seasoning time is often not an issue. I do agree with the cash strapped or faint of heart statement.

I missed that. I saw the question as why hasn't my deed been registered. That fact is, OP is already the owner of title even if it has not been registered. The registration of the deed is merely the physical publication of that fact.

Yes on the first. Which is how some investors do it, or possibly don't even realize that it would have been a problem just a couple of months earlier.

Yes he says he was calling the closer and the buyers agent. (implies that there was a title company involved)

Anyway good discussion.

 

[justalayman]

nanu156;3087667]Some people meaning general public looking to make their "fortune" with a measly 5k etc... I hear this junk all day every day. bleh...

Ya mean all those guys I see at 3 am are lying to me? Hell, they told me I could be a millionaire nearly overnight with no money of my own invested. Damn, I've been scammed.

Betcha betcha they have licenses, and are legitimate investors, of some sort... Especially in declining markets like Michigan, Indiana, and Illinois...

no. Just average guys with some time to kill and a couple bucks in their pockets. They don't do big numbers. Usually 1 or 2 annually. Sometimes more if something pops up that is just to good to turn away.

This btw refrences TWO appraisals of these properties, by two companies at a cost to the BUYER

I suspect the 2nd (where required) might be born by the seller. If I was involved as an RE sellers agent, I would surely suggest the seller bear the cost of the second appraisal if it was questioned at all. After all, it is due to the situation they created.

I suspect you mean "ARM" mortgages. Balloons weren't big... in the 90's or even the 2000's... ARMS were however.

Nope, balloons. I'm a bit older than that but yes, arms were also over utilized. The recommendation for them could be just as egregious.

We are talking about purchasers, the purchasers in these situations are typically the ones who get smacked when they find out (typically unbeknownst to them) that a home is not lendable at its current purchase price.

I'm having a hard time accepting a lender will not accept a qualified appraisal. If a purchaser is willing to pay over appraised value, of course that is on the buyer. Maybe I have been out of the biz too long though and not kept up with all of the changes.

Anyway good discussion.

 

[nanu156]

I'm having a hard time accepting a lender will not accept a qualified appraisal. If a purchaser is willing to pay over appraised value, of course that is on the buyer. Maybe I have been out of the biz too long though and not kept up with all of the changes.

believe it. I promise you in an un-seasoned transaction the Mortgage company won't accept.

As far as passing that cost to the Seller a buyers agent could certainly negotiate for that, but it would be considered "sellers concessions" Concessions are typically used to cover closing costs, different products allow for different %'s of concessions to be allowed. They can't be applied to down payments, but can be used to cover things like title, points, lender costs, escrows etc. (typically between 3-6% although with large downpayments it could go as high as 9%, although if I had a big DP I would just negotiate for a lower purch price)

Typically in today's market buyers have already negotiated for the maximum sellers concessions.

JAL you wouldn't believe how stupid and or uninformed (sometimes both) the general public is... That argument about 8K closing costs. I am nearly 100% sure that borrower was counting escrow deposits as a "closing cost"

I don't agree that Balloon mortgages were a part of the recent collapse btw. The ones that were going to default defaulted in the 90's not the 2000's. I can cite about 100 reasons that the bubble burst but I wouldn't include balloon mortgages. 15/30 balloon 2nds I suppose were a causation but that was due to LTV's not the eventual balloon at 15 years... (most were orig between 2003-2006 so they aren't scheduled to balloon for another 6 years) Arms and Option arms specifically didn't help, but I don't even know if I would specifically blame them to be honest. (this discussion can be continued via PM if you like)

 

[draco]

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=386.375

386.375 TRANSFER AND STORAGE OF ABSTRACTS.

Subdivision 1.Responsibility to transfer. (a) A person holding an abstract of title to real estate located in Minnesota shall, at a closing of a sale of the property to which the abstract pertains, make a written offer to transfer the abstract of title to the mortgagor or fee owner at no charge to the mortgagor or fee owner. If the offer is accepted, the abstract must be transferred at the closing unless the abstract of title is being held after the closing for issuance of a final title opinion or policy of title insurance in which case the holder has a reasonable period of time to transfer the abstract.
(b) A person holding an abstract of title to real estate located in Minnesota shall, within ten days of receipt of a written request from the mortgagor or fee owner of the property to which the abstract pertains, transfer the abstract of title to the mortgagor or fee owner at no charge, other than postage, to the mortgagor or fee owner. If the abstract of title is being held after a closing for issuance of a final title opinion or policy of title insurance, the holder has a reasonable period of time to transfer the abstract.

(c) If a person holding an abstract of title to real estate located in Minnesota fails to comply with the requirements of this subdivision, the mortgagor or fee owner of the property may have an abstract of title made at the expense of the last known person holding the abstract of title, and is also entitled to collect actual civil damages of up to $500 from the person last known to hold the abstract of title.

They have 10 days unless the title company has causation to hold it up.

you contact the company who did the title work on your behalf, not the closer... (who you may mean notary company or title company by this)

Thanks for the info. I tried Google, but must have used the wrong keywords as I didn't find it.

Apparently it's been sent to the county, and they said about 6 days. Not trying to flip it. It was bank owned and one of the conditions is I can't sell it for 3 months. It's just a good deal (IMHO) and I may be going out of the country for awhile, so I was hoping to get it all settled before I leave. Plus I'm the impatient type.

 

[nanu156]

Thanks for the info. I tried Google, but must have used the wrong keywords as I didn't find it.

Apparently it's been sent to the county, and they said about 6 days. Not trying to flip it. It was bank owned and one of the conditions is I can't sell it for 3 months. It's just a good deal (IMHO) and I may be going out of the country for awhile, so I was hoping to get it all settled before I leave. Plus I'm the impatient type.

Feel free to leave the country as needed. You are the legal owner of the property. This is already "wrapped up"

Sorry to have a JAL vs Mork tangent going on in your thread.

I am a super googler