Almost 80 and they sell her a car!!!!!

[Rainier]

What is the name of your state? WA

A few days ago I found out that a 79 year old neighbor had, for the third time in less than 5 months, fallen prey to telemarketing fraud. I posted about that one on the Banking and Credit Card Board.

Anyway - there's a whole lot more going on with this lady and I'm just taking one problem at a time.

My concern right now is that just about 8 weeks ago, Esther walked into a vehicle dealership and drove out with a 2005 Subaru Legacy. They gave her $3.500.00 for her "old" car, she paid $4,000.00 cash and the rest was financed - $477.00 a month for 72 months.

In a nutshell - this lady doesn't have the income to meet this debt.

She's a widow and her sole income is $879.00 a month social security and that's all she declared on the loan application through Chase Manhatten.

I've spoken with the dealership, asking them how this elderly woman ever got a loan in the first place. Just adding up the bare basics - even without the car payment of $477.00 a month, her income is less than her expenditure so how on earth was her loan approved in the first place!

Although pleasant, they offered just two solutions - get her to file bankruptsy or sell the vehicle and pay off the loan.

Esther is close to 80 - she can care for her basic needs but it's patently obvious from her finances that she's making some bad choices (a neighbor has practically wiped out her savings by borrowing money but I'll ask about that matter seperately).

Can anyone give me some advice.

Thank you.

 

[BlondiePB]

Call Adult Professional Services immediately. This lady needs at least a professional guardian/conservator over her estate (financial affairs) who can deal with this. Also tell APS about the neighbor friend who cleaned out the lady's bank account.

 

[I AM ALWAYS LIABLE]

My response:

I smell a real, real, real, good "Elder Abuse" case against the dealership and everyone else who has financial dealings with Esther . . .

Does Esther have family living nearby?

IAAL

 

[BlondiePB]

My response:

I smell a real, real, real, good "Elder Abuse" case against the dealership and everyone else who has financial dealings with Esther . . .

Does Esther have family living nearby?

IAAL

I agree. APS will contact this lady's family. I'm just not too sure that the average "lay person" can handle what needs to be done. This elder lady also falls for telemarketing scams who have the elder's info and has made unauthorized withdrawals from the elder's bank account.

 

[Rainier]

I smell a real, real, real, good "Elder Abuse" case against the dealership and everyone else who has financial dealings with Esther . . .

IAAL,

She has family somewhere but I know that they've not been near her in the 4 years that I've been living here. I asked for some phone numbers but she says she doesn't have them.

I've got several calls into various State and County adult services. The few that I've managed to get hold of just pass me off to someone else. The moment you mention that she lives OK on her own, she can even drive around locally, she's keeping herself clean and tidy etc, I get passed to another department.

I have no problem in helping this lady. I've done the bank reports and filed reports with the police over the telemarketing thing. I've got her telephone number changed, unlisted, I'm vetting her mail, I've confiscated her check book and I can view her checking account online to make sure there's nothing untoward happening again.

But the Sheriff's Department haven't been too helpful with the shyster neighbour who's been "borrowing" money, looking after some of Esther's valuables for "safe keeping" etc. etc. Unless we can prove actual theft then they just recommend sending a certified letter. Seems he has more rights than Esther but I think I'll pay for a local attorney to send the letter - he's not anyone I'd want to meet at night.

It's the car that's the major problem because of the cost (that and the insurance on it more or less equals her total income). Right now she has no money - her social security check went into her closed checking account on Friday - as she was overdrawn because of the telemarking fraud - the bank can't release the funds and it's likely to be between 90 and 120 days before she'll get them.

Mr. Liable - given that Esther has zero funds - can you advise me how best to proceed with the elder abuse thing.

Thank you.

Oh! and I must say - it's nice talking with you again - you helped me some 4 years ago with a friend and their annulment - I was MaryP (living in the UK at the time).

 

[I AM ALWAYS LIABLE]

IAAL,

She has family somewhere but I know that they've not been near her in the 4 years that I've been living here. I asked for some phone numbers but she says she doesn't have them.

I've got several calls into various State and County adult services. The few that I've managed to get hold of just pass me off to someone else. The moment you mention that she lives OK on her own, she can even drive around locally, she's keeping herself clean and tidy etc, I get passed to another department.

I have no problem in helping this lady. I've done the bank reports and filed reports with the police over the telemarketing thing. I've got her telephone number changed, unlisted, I'm vetting her mail, I've confiscated her check book and I can view her checking account online to make sure there's nothing untoward happening again.

But the Sheriff's Department haven't been too helpful with the shyster neighbour who's been "borrowing" money, looking after some of Esther's valuables for "safe keeping" etc. etc. Unless we can prove actual theft then they just recommend sending a certified letter. Seems he has more rights than Esther but I think I'll pay for a local attorney to send the letter - he's not anyone I'd want to meet at night.

It's the car that's the major problem because of the cost (that and the insurance on it more or less equals her total income). Right now she has no money - her social security check went into her closed checking account on Friday - as she was overdrawn because of the telemarking fraud - the bank can't release the funds and it's likely to be between 90 and 120 days before she'll get them.

Mr. Liable - given that Esther has zero funds - can you advise me how best to proceed with the elder abuse thing.

Thank you.

Oh! and I must say - it's nice talking with you again - you helped me some 4 years ago with a friend and their annulment - I was MaryP (living in the UK at the time).

My response:

Hello, Mary. Nice to hear from you again.

Actually, you can't do anything - - and, quite frankly, since you're not a family member, what you're doing with her check book and account is unlawful. Remember, the same Elder Abuse statutes apply to you too!

I know you're "innocent", but what you're doing is no better than her neighbor who is "looking after some of Esther's valuables for "safe keeping".

If Esther is able to take care of herself; i.e., Bathe, clothe and feed herself, then there's little you're legally able to do, and she's "open season" for any ner-do-well.

Somehow, you've got to get in touch with a family member to get a lawsuit going, and perhaps a Conservatorship over her. But, as for you, and I know that you're not going to like this, but give back her checkbook, and stop meddling. This is because if a family member DOES find out what you're doing, you could be on the wrong end of an Elder Abuse lawsuit - - and that's not where even I'd want to be. Those laws were written by some pretty pissed off legislators.

IAAL

 

[Rainier]

Actually, you can't do anything - - and, quite frankly, since you're not a family member, what you're doing with her check book and account is unlawful. Remember, the same Elder Abuse statutes apply to you too!

I know you're "innocent", but what you're doing is no better than her neighbor who is "looking after some of Esther's valuables for "safe keeping".

If Esther is able to take care of herself; i.e., Bathe, clothe and feed herself, then there's little you're legally able to do, and she's "open season" for any ner-do-well.

Somehow, you've got to get in touch with a family member to get a lawsuit going, and perhaps a Conservatorship over her. But, as for you, and I know that you're not going to like this, but give back her checkbook, and stop meddling. This is because if a family member DOES find out what you're doing, you could be on the wrong end of an Elder Abuse lawsuit - - and that's not where even I'd want to be. Those laws were written by some pretty pissed off legislators.

IAAL,

I appreciate your advice and I understand what you say about my involvement.

OK - I can give her back her checkbook and I'll work on finding out the whereabouts of her children.

On checking her account, in the absence of any involvement from her children, this was something her new bank (as of Friday of last week) suggested Esther get me to do given that in just 4 months, she's lost money to the telemarketers on 3 seperate occasions.

We're at a point where life choice will have to be made anyway (which I suspect is another reason why her children dropped out of her life - that and the fact that she doesn't have anything worth a squat).

I can't just abandon her though - I'll walk away as soon as I can either find her kids or a State or County authority who's willing to step in to protect her.

Corrine

 

[BlondiePB]

Rainier,
Check probate and trust WA statutes, especially RCW 11.88.010 and 11.88.030). Anyone can petition the court for this lady to be appointed a professional/public guardian over her estate. The fees can be waived. The court will notify the lady's family - though it would be best if you would try to contact the lady's family.

I don't know about WA; however, bank officers can report "vulnerable adults" to APS. Because you told APS this lady could take care of her person, APS did not respond. Perhaps, that's how APS works in WA which is not how APS works in other states. Dept of Elder Affairs may be able to help too, but first call the lady's family and heed IAAL's advice regarding the Elder Abuse statutes applying to you. Thank you for "watching out" for an elder.

Best Regards,

BlondiePB

 

[violas]

This is so tragic!!! Poor Esther. Since her children don't seem to give a damn about her and Rainier does care about this poor woman: Would it be possible for Rainier to apply and become Esther's legal conservator?

 

[I AM ALWAYS LIABLE]

This is so tragic!!! Poor Esther. Since her children don't seem to give a damn about her and Rainier does care about this poor woman: Would it be possible for Rainier to apply and become Esther's legal conservator?

My response:

Sure, if no other family member was located, or if located, refused to apply for conservatorship, and after about $10,000.00 or more in Attorney's and Expert fees was spent. But, as long as Esther is able to care for her own "life necessities", and if she's not a danger to herself or others, then she wouldn't qualify for needing a Conservator. Poof, money all gone.

If the only qualitative factor to requiring a Conservator was her age, then half this country would have Conservators. Even at 80 plus years of age, we're all entitled to make stupid and financially hazardous decisions.

The only difference between dealing with a person above age 65 and someone below age 65 is that certain safeguards must be met before a contract (as one example) can be considered proper. In Esther's real life situation with the vehicle purchase, did the dealership have any safeguards in place when they found out she was above age 65? If not, the contract could be considered voidable by Esther - - that is, if she decides to rescind the vehicle purchase contract.

IAAL

 

[I AM ALWAYS LIABLE]

My further response:

Esther may also choose to have a person, like Corrine, act as her "Power of Attorney" under a General and Durable Power of Attorney. With the assistance of an attorney, Esther could voluntarily hand over all of her daily requirements to someone else. But, most aged people like to be independent and will not voluntarily sign a POA, or if they do, they wind up withdrawing the POA once they actually discovery how rigid it is; e.g., the elder person doesn't really fully understand such a POA, and attempts to live their lives, and spend their money as they always have and, when they can't find their own checkbook to buy that 60" Plasma T.V., they "put the brakes" on the POA real fast, thereby canceling the POA. Poof, all the money for attorney's fees is gone.

IAAL

 

[BayAreaBMWFan]

Attn IAAL

I am sorry to hijack this thread but your PM/Email is off.

Hi
I want to fight a traffic speeding ticket. I am already discussing the case in this thread.

https://forum.freeadvice.com/showthread.php?t=237105

I do not want to lose my right to traffic school. In Santa Clara County if you decide to contest the ticket you lose the right to traffic school.

I feel that I have a strong technical case of winning. However, to establish it I need a lot of information, especially about the process followed by the officer to find my speed.

Can I get the information without pleading not guilty? How do I file an informal request for discovery?
Is there a standard form I should use?

 

[Rainier]

Sorry to have taken so long in coming back - these past few days have been exhausting with little to show for it.

As of right now, I'm still waiting for return calls from local authorities about what care is available for Esther - I'll be calling them again tomorrow.

Esther has agreed that she is unable to cope with various aspects of her life and both she and a daughter are willing for me have limited Power of Attorney.

To that end, we're visiting a local lawyer next week and provided she is confident that Esther is capable of making a decision about this (and that her children are informed also and have no issue with it), I'll at least be able to keep an eye her bank account - vet her mail (cause right now, if it looks like a bill - she'll pay it), and to fend off all the unsolicited mailings she's been getting from the likes of Publishers Clearing House etc. which she just pays without realising she never ordered anything. Oh! and you're wrong about the 60" plasma TV Mr Liable - it's only 54"! LOL. We can thank the shyster friend for persuading her to buy that one.

I contacted the Subaru dealership about the car they sold her in February. They listened but were unwilling to come to an amicable arrangement. They gave us two options. Esther can sell the car but that won't pay off the debt anyway, or she can simply file bankruptsy!

I've just drafted a letter to go certified to Subaru of America, Inc. in NJ pointing out that Esther has a documented history of making unwise choices over her finances. Also she was recently diagnosed with type II diabetes. (From the little research I've done on that, inattention and confustion are not uncommon).

I know I'm clutching at straws here but I'm willing to try anything. My letter to Subaru is pleasant - merely pointing out the facts and stating that I was confident that Subaru has a system in place for dealing with the elderly and that possibly Esther just fell through the cracks on this occasion......hmmmm!

Mr. Liable - and everyone else. I thank you deeply for your advice.

Esther isn't stupid - far from it. She told me today that she knows that what we're doing right now is merely fending off the inevitable and our visit to the attorney next week will address that issue also. In the meantime, she knows that provided she cooperates, I'll do everything I can to help her stay in her home.

Corrine

 

[Veronica1228]

Corrine, I have been following Esther's story on the other thread you created in the Banking forum and if you are still around, I wondered if you had an update on that. I wish all the best for you and your neighbor, and I'm hoping you have had some success with that part of Esther's issues.

Give us a post back and let us know. Good luck to you both.

 

[Rainier]

Corrine, I have been following Esther's story on the other thread you created in the Banking forum and if you are still around, I wondered if you had an update on that. I wish all the best for you and your neighbor, and I'm hoping you have had some success with that part of Esther's issues.

I'm sorry Veronica - I'll head that way right now.

Corrine