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Bizarre, disturbing detaining after riding on bicycle

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CdwJava

Senior Member
I left on my bike at 10:30 on the dot (I know because I was at a public park that shuts its lights off at 10:29 every night). I hadn't been on my bike more than 2-3 minutes before I was pulled over. This is verifiable by the location I was pulled over in relation to the park I left from. I rode my bike roughly 5 minutes after being released and reached my destination at 11:41. So, draw your own conclusions as to how long I was detained. I'm assuming your background is more closely aligned with those in law enforcement, which is fine.
Education and law enforcement, yes.

But, all the same, the law does allow an officer to detain someone even in handcuffs and in a car. The key determinants are the reasonableness of the action and the time. I find it difficult to believe that the matter took an hour to resolve, but it may well be possible. At this point you are left with a complaint to the agency about the officer's demeanor and attitude, or, paying an attorney a lot of money to roll the dice on an issue with no real damages.

In California, I have serious doubts as to there being such a thing as a DUI while riding a bike. Yes, I know riding a bike while under the influence is illegal. But, it is not a DUI.
Well, actually, it IS a DUI of a sort (VC 21200.5) ... just not DUI in a motor vehicle. And it is a misdemeanor criminal offense.

I do not and have not felt there is any sort of major prize out there for me over this. I'm simply appalled that this is how civilians can be treated by those who are supposedly here to protect and to serve the public.
Your initial argument that the officer had no right to cross the road and detain you was simply wrong. He could and he did. The use of restraints requires minimal articulation, and unless he's a moron, he can meet that burden. The only issue then becomes whether or not the length of time you were detained is reasonable or not. If truly an hour, then I would want to see some pretty extenuating circumstances as I cannot see any need to hold you that long - and as a sergeant I would not want my officers to be ties up on a glorified infraction for that long, anyway. Unless there were issues with the investigation or responses regarding ID it should not have taken that long.

One way to avoid future negative contacts is to (a) get a light for your bike (and side and rear reflectors), and, (b) ride the bicycle on the correct side of the road and ON the roadway proper. While you were on a sidewalk, many jurisdictions make it unlawful to ride a bicycle on a sidewalk in certain areas and these areas do not necessarily need to be posted. And, a sidewalk is part of the highway pursuant to the CVC.
 
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tranquility

Senior Member
But, all the same, the law does allow an officer to detain someone even in handcuffs and in a car. The key determinants are the reasonableness of the action and the time. I find it difficult to believe that the matter took an hour to resolve, but it may well be possible. At this point you are left with a complaint to the agency about the officer's demeanor and attitude, or, paying an attorney a lot of money to roll the dice on an issue with no real damages.
I don't think there is any reasonable argument on the facts the OP was "arrested" and not merely detained. But, while some cases might call it a custodial arrest, I'm not sure it would violate the law under CPC 853.5 (Or, .6 if misdemeanor.). There is no 4th amendment issue as there was probable cause to arrest for the "public offense". The cases I see for prolonged time usually have to do with search issues and not civil issues. This is a state statute issue. If we look solely to if there was a "detention", then the officer may have more of a problem as the purported reason for the detention disappeared when the officer searched the OP's wallet and found a license with a name that any reasonable person would consider the same as the one given.
I tell him my name is Chris LastName with DOB. He searches and does not find me. He gets out of the vehicle and orders my hands behind my back. He tells me I gave him a fake name. He also says that I did not properly position my hands as he handcuffs me. He throws my wallet and keys in the street and forces me into the police car. I ask why I've been handcuffed and forced into the police car and he says it was because I gave him a fake name. I did not give a fake name. But, my name was listed as 'Christopher' and he entered Chris. He grabbed my wallet and searched for me using my Driver License and of course found me.
While there is always a factual argument on such matters, two appropriate guidelines are:
U.S. v. Parr, 843 F.2d 1228 (1990)
There is no question in this case that the officer had the discretionary authority to arrest Parr. See Or.Rev.Stat. Sec. 133.130(10)(g) (authorizing arrest for violation of Or.Rev.Stat. Sec. 811.175). The validity of a discretionary full custody arrest and search incident to that arrest for minor traffic offenses has been upheld. Gustafson v. Florida, 414 U.S. 260, 266, 94 S.Ct. 488, 492, 38 L.Ed.2d 456 (1973); United States v. Franklin, 728 F.2d 994, 997 (8th Cir.1984). We also believe there was probable cause for the officer to believe that Parr was violating the law by driving while suspended. The officer had cited Parr earlier for driving while suspended and had recently checked Parr's record.
8

Nonetheless, it is not clear that the police action taken here is the type of "custodial arrest" necessary to support a search incident to arrest. See Belton, 453 U.S. at 461, 101 S.Ct. at 2864 (requiring "lawful custodial arrest" to support contemporaneous search of automobile incident to that arrest). Certainly, there is no per se rule that detention in a patrol car constitutes an arrest. See United States v. Kapperman, 764 F.2d 786, 792 (11th Cir.1985) (no arrest when police moved defendant to nearby area in patrol car); United States v. Manbeck, 744 F.2d 360, 377-78 (4th Cir.1984) (no arrest when suspect placed in back of patrol car), cert. denied, 469 U.S. 1217, 105 S.Ct. 1197, 84 L.Ed.2d 342 (1985).
9

The Seventh Circuit recently reasoned that "sitting in the patrol car for several minutes was merely a normal part of traffic police procedure for identifying delinquent drivers" and did not constitute custodial arrest. United States v. Rodriguez, 831 F.2d 162, 166 (7th Cir.1987). We reached essentially the same conclusion in United States v. Thompson, 597 F.2d 187, 190 (9th Cir.1979). There we held that the defendant's failure to produce a valid driver's license "justified the request that he get out of his car and sit in the police car while a standard police identification process took place." Id. Because the defendant was not under arrest at the time of the search, we concluded that the search was unlawful. Id. at 191.
10

In United States v. Gonzalez, 763 F.2d 1127, 1130 n. 1 (10th Cir.1985), the court noted that the distinction between custodial arrests and traffic arrests is critical "because the label used for constitutional purposes defines the scope of reasonable police conduct incident to such a [traffic] stop." The court reasoned:
11

If such a traffic stop were like a traditional custodial arrest, then as part of the search incident to arrest the apprehending officer could search the entire passenger compartment. But if, as we conclude here, the traffic stop only amounts to an investigative detention, the officer's freedom to search is more limited; his motivation for the search must be related to concern for protecting himself or others rather than any concern with preserving evidence.
12

Id. (citations omitted). Similarly, in United States v. Robinson, 471 F.2d 1082, 1096 (D.C.Cir.1972), rev'd on other grounds, 414 U.S. 218, 94 S.Ct. 494, 38 L.Ed.2d 427 (1973), the D.C. Circuit noted the important distinction between " 'routine' traffic arrests--where the officer simply issues a notice of violation and allows the offender to proceed--and the more serious cases in which the officer effects an 'in-custody' arrest...." The court concluded that "the permissible scope of searches incident to routine traffic arrests, where there is no evidentiary basis for a search and where the officer intends simply to issue a notice of violation and to allow the offender to proceed, must be governed by [Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1, 88 S.Ct. 1868, 20 L.Ed.2d 889 (1968) ]." Id. at 1097. The Supreme Court concluded, however, that the defendant had been placed in "full-custody arrest" and therefore expressly declined to reach the issue of whether the search might have been unlawful if the incident were "characterized as 'a routine traffic stop,' i.e., where the officer would simply issue a notice of violation and allow the offender to proceed." Robinson, 414 U.S. at 236 n. 6, 94 S.Ct. at 477 n. 6.
13

The Court subsequently addressed whether a traffic arrest triggers the requirements of Miranda. See Berkemer v. McCarty, 468 U.S. 420, 439, 104 S.Ct. 3138, 3149, 82 L.Ed.2d 317 (1984). While acknowledging that traffic stops are seizures for fourth amendment purposes, the Court held that such seizures are "presumptively temporary and brief" and are therefore "more analogous" to Terry stops. Id. at 437-39, 104 S.Ct. at 3148-49. The Court did caution, however, that "f a motorist who has been detained pursuant to a traffic stop thereafter is subjected to treatment that renders him 'in custody' for practical purposes, he will be entitled to the full panoply of protections prescribed by Miranda." Id. at 440, 104 S.Ct. at 3150.2
14

Whether Parr was subjected to treatment that rendered him in "custody" is, of course, the determinative question. There is clearly no mechanical checklist to distinguish between Terry stops and formal arrest or the equivalent of arrest. See United States v. Quinn, 815 F.2d 153, 156 (1st Cir.1987); United States v. Jones, 759 F.2d 633, 636 (8th Cir.), cert. denied, 474 U.S. 837, 106 S.Ct. 113, 88 L.Ed.2d 92 (1985). Our review is de novo, United States v. Kerr, 817 F.2d 1384, 1386 (9th Cir.1987), and turns on the particular facts and circumstances of each case. United States v. Rubies, 612 F.2d 397, 404 n. 8 (9th Cir.1979), cert. denied, 446 U.S. 940, 100 S.Ct. 2162, 64 L.Ed.2d 794 (1980).
15

There is "no bright-line for determining when an investigatory stop crosses the line and becomes an arrest." United States v. Hatfield, 815 F.2d 1068, 1070 (6th Cir.1987). Nevertheless, a distinction between investigatory stops and arrests may be drawn at the point of transporting the defendant to the police station. See, e.g., Hayes v. Florida, 470 U.S. 811, 816, 105 S.Ct. 1643, 1646, 84 L.Ed.2d 705 (1985) (line between investigatory detention and arrest is crossed when police transport suspect to police station); Dunaway v. New York, 442 U.S. 200, 216, 99 S.Ct. 2248, 2258, 60 L.Ed.2d 824 (1979) (arrest occurs when suspect is seized and transported to the police station for interrogation); United States v. Hernandez, 825 F.2d 846, 851 (5th Cir.1987) (removal of suspect from the scene of the stop to police headquarters usually marks the point at which an investigative stop becomes a de facto arrest), cert. denied, --- U.S. ----, 108 S.Ct. 1032, 98 L.Ed.2d 996 (1988); United States v. Ceballos, 812 F.2d 42, 49 (2d Cir.1987) (transporting suspect to police station exceeds bounds of Terry stop and becomes an unlawful arrest); Gonzalez, 763 F.2d at 1133 (forcing suspect to go to police station crosses the line into de facto arrest); Gonzalez v. City of Peoria, 722 F.2d 468, 477 (9th Cir.1983) (defendant is arrested when transported to police station and placed in cell or interrogation room even if the purpose of the seizure is investigatory rather than accusatory).
16
 

tranquility

Senior Member
The second description:
U.S. v. Ricardo D, 912 F.2d 337 (1990)
A. Arrest
12

We review de novo the question whether the seizure of Ricardo prior to his formal arrest1 exceeded the bounds of an investigatory stop. United States v. Parr, 843 F.2d 1228, 1231 (9th Cir.1988). At the hearing on the suppression motions, the district court found that probable cause for the arrest existed, without any explicit finding of when the arrest occurred. Given that the government essentially concedes that there was no probable cause to arrest Ricardo prior to his first admission, the district court implicitly found that the field detention was nothing more than a Terry stop.
13

The Supreme Court itself has recognized that distinguishing a Terry investigative stop from a de facto arrest "may in some instances create difficult line-drawing problems." United States v. Sharpe, 470 U.S. 675, 685, 105 S.Ct. 1568, 1575, 84 L.Ed.2d 605 (1985). As noted by the Court in the seminal case of Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1, 30, 88 S.Ct. 1868, 1884, 20 L.Ed.2d 889 (1968), each case must be decided on its own facts. "Whether an arrest has occurred depends on all the surrounding circumstances, including the extent to which liberty of movement is curtailed and the type of force or authority employed." United States v. Robertson, 833 F.2d 777, 780 (9th Cir.1987). In reviewing the facts and circumstances of each case, we must be mindful of the narrow scope of the Terry exception--an exception based on a brief, street encounter between police and a suspect. To do otherwise would be to risk allowing the " 'exception' ... to swallow the general rule that Fourth Amendment seizures are 'reasonable' only if based on probable cause." Dunaway v. New York, 442 U.S. 200, 213, 99 S.Ct. 2248, 2257, 60 L.Ed.2d 824 (1979); see Florida v. Royer, 460 U.S. 491, 510, 103 S.Ct. 1319, 1331, 75 L.Ed.2d 229 (1983) (plurality opinion) (Brennan, J., concurring).
14

Under the totality of the circumstances, we conclude that the detention of Ricardo during field questioning by officers Bork and Emery amounted to a de facto arrest. With the high beams of a police car shining in his face, 16-year-old Ricardo was patted down, gripped by the arm, told he was not to run anymore, and directed to the back of one of two patrol cars present at the scene. In United States v. Baron, 860 F.2d 911, 916 (9th Cir.1988), cert. denied, --- U.S. ----, 109 S.Ct. 1944, 104 L.Ed.2d 414 (1989), we found coerciveness to be the critical factor in determining that an arrest had occurred. Similarly, in this case we conclude that taking hold of and isolating an unarmed, compliant juvenile in the back of a police car was unnecessarily coercive, and thus transformed the investigatory stop into an arrest.
15

Our conclusion is consistent with decisional guidelines concerning the scope of a permissible Terry stop. In general, the investigative methods used should be the least intrusive means reasonably available. Florida v. Royer, 460 U.S. at 500, 103 S.Ct. at 1325. Although the use of some force does not automatically transform an investigatory detention into an arrest, any overt show of force or authority should be justified under the circumstances. See, e.g., United States v. Holtzman, 871 F.2d 1496, 1502 (9th Cir.1989) (restraints justified by belief suspect was attempting to flee); United States v. Buffington, 815 F.2d 1292, 1300 (9th Cir.1987) (given officer's knowledge of suspect's history of violence, show of force justified by fear for personal safety). Similarly, as suggested by the Court in Florida v. Royer, 460 U.S. at 504-05, 103 S.Ct. at 1328, the police may move a suspect from the location of the initial stop without converting the stop to an arrest when it is necessary for safety or security reasons. Baron, 860 F.2d at 915.
16

We find no such justifications for taking hold of Ricardo, telling him not to run anymore, and seating him in the back of the patrol car for questioning. In Holtzman, we held that manual restraints and a show of authority were justified by the officer's belief that Holtzman was attempting to flee. 871 F.2d at 1502; see also United States v. Bautista, 684 F.2d 1286, 1289 (9th Cir.1982) (handcuffs permissible when defendant kept pacing and looking as if he was about to run), cert. denied, 459 U.S. 1211, 103 S.Ct. 1206, 75 L.Ed.2d 446 (1983). In this case, however, Officer Bork testified that Ricardo made no attempt to flee when approached. Moreover, we discern no reasons of safety or security for moving Ricardo to the patrol car. The officers had no reason to believe Ricardo was dangerous. Furthermore, the location of the "stop" was rural and there were no other people in the area when the officers pulled up. Compare Eberle v. City of Anaheim, 901 F.2d 814, 819 (9th Cir.1990) (no arrest when officers took suspect to security office at football stadium due to safety concerns caused by large, unruly crowd).
17

Although, as stated by the Fourth Circuit, the back of a patrol car "is not an ideal location for the purposes of an investigatory detention," United States v. Manbeck, 744 F.2d 360, 377 (4th Cir.1984), cert. denied, 469 U.S. 1217, 105 S.Ct. 1197, 84 L.Ed.2d 342 (1985), we recognize that the element of isolation from the public view (and concomitant coerciveness) in such a case is somewhat weaker than when a suspect is taken to a private room for interrogation. See Baron, 860 F.2d at 916 (noting that the suspect would probably have felt less threatened sitting in a patrol car in public than shut in a darkened bedroom). We have stated that there is no per se rule that detention in a patrol car constitutes an arrest, Parr, 843 F.2d at 1230, yet, "[t]here is clearly no mechanical checklist to distinguish between Terry stops and formal arrest or the equivalent of arrest," id. at 1231. Thus, we held that when a defendant was placed in the back of a patrol car for twenty minutes, questioned, and never informed that he was free to leave, the detention was equivalent to an arrest. United States v. Chamberlin, 644 F.2d 1262, 1267 (9th Cir.1980), cert. denied, 453 U.S. 914, 101 S.Ct. 3148, 69 L.Ed.2d 997 (1981).
18

Decisions in this and other circuits support the proposition that detention in a patrol car exceeds permissible Terry limits absent some reasonable justification or when the detention is something other than a brief procedure employed in a routine traffic stop. In Parr, we held that no arrest occurred when, after a routine vehicle stop, the officer placed Parr in the patrol car for a few minutes while the officer spoke to Parr's companion and conducted a search of Parr's vehicle. 843 F.2d at 1231. In that case, however, as the officer was stopping Parr, he observed Parr and his companion "bend toward the floorboard and 'make furtive movements.' " Id. at 1229. Although we did not explicitly consider this circumstance, it would appear that reasons of safety and security thus justified moving Parr to the police car. Furthermore, we noted the reasoning of the Seventh Circuit that " 'sitting in a patrol car for several minutes was merely a normal part of traffic police procedure for identifying delinquent drivers' and did not constitute custodial arrest." Id. at 1230 (quoting United States v. Rodriquez, 831 F.2d 162, 166 (7th Cir.1987), cert. denied, 485 U.S. 965, 108 S.Ct. 1234, 99 L.Ed.2d 433 (1988)). Our decision thus rested in part on a distinction between "routine traffic arrests" and "custodial arrests" for the purpose of limiting the scope of an incidental search. See id.
19

Other circuits addressing the patrol car issue have relied on similar justifications for upholding the detention as a mere investigatory stop. See, e.g., Manbeck, 744 F.2d 377-78 (defendant would have had possible access to weapons and a means of escape if allowed to remain in his own truck, and due to inclement weather, placement in patrol car was only feasible alternative); United States v. Lego, 855 F.2d 542, 545 (8th Cir.1988) (because suspect already found to have a weapon, safety concerns made it proper for lone officer to have suspect sit in patrol car while officer ran a check for outstanding warrants).
20

No comparable circumstances serve to explain or justify Ricardo's patrol car detention. As discussed previously, the officers had no reason to fear for their own safety or the safety of others. Nor was this a traffic stop with any attendant need to remove the suspect from his own vehicle and place him in a safe location. Finally, Officer Bork did not, and in fact could not, conduct a warrants check on Ricardo. See Transcript of Proceedings at 62, CR 89-184-TUC-WDB (June 14, 1989) (testimony of Officer Bork that "[t]he only time a juvenile can be entered is if he were a runaway"). In sum, there was no reason to move Ricardo from a public place to the patrol car for questioning.
21

Although the movement of Ricardo to the patrol car is a significant factor in our analysis, we reiterate that each case is decided under the totality of the particular circumstances. For example, in conjunction with the place of detention, in Baron we considered the disparity in power stemming from the fact that Baron was a female detained by three male officers. Baron, 60 F.2d at 916. Here, we take into account that a juvenile was confronted by several officers.2 To a limited extent, we also consider Officer Bork's threat of arrest for providing false information as adding to the coercive atmosphere of the detention. Thus, all the circumstances, including the facts that the suspect was sixteen, taken by the arm, told not to run, and placed in the back of the police car, indicate a degree of coercion unacceptable as part of a Terry stop, and unsupportable on anything less than probable cause. We therefore hold that the officers effectively arrested Ricardo when they detained him in the patrol car for questioning.
 

Mass_Shyster

Senior Member
I don't think there is any reasonable argument on the facts the OP was "arrested" and not merely detained.
When I originally read "We basically sit in the car for a good hour ... and go around in circles until we just stop." I thought the "go around" referred to driving around, rather than having a discussion. If the officer was driving the suspect around for an hour, one could argue it was an arrest rather than a mere detention.
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
An "arrest" for Miranda, but not one under the Penal Code that would require release pursuant to PC 849. All because it is a detention that is equivalent to a custodial arrest does not make it an arrest for all purposes such as release per PC 849 or disclosure as such to a prospective employer.

Time is a key factor, but so are the other surrounding factors.

From CPOLS:

"Particularly in a high-risk situation it may be proper to order a suspect to the ground, handcuff him, place him in your patrol unit, or even confront him with your gun drawn. (Bowen (1987) 195 Cal.App.3d 269; Orozco (1981) 114 Cal.App.3d 435; Taylor (1986) 178 Cal.App.3d 217.) Remember that the shorter the period of time such extreme measures are used, the better."

"you can use whatever precautionary safety measures are reasonable under the circumstances. During a lawful detention, officers are "authorized to take such steps as [are] reasonably necessary to protect their personal safety and to maintain the status quo during the course of the stop." ($109,179 (9th Cir. 2000) 228 F.3d 1080, 1084.) The use of force, handcuffs, etc., does not necessarily turn a detention into an arrest."

Bottom line:

"In determining whether the contact was a lawful detention or an unlawful arrest, courts will look to the "totality of the circumstances" and evaluate (1) the intrusiveness of the detention (i.e., the methods used by police, and how severely the suspect's liberty was restricted) and (2) the justification for using the force or restraints that were employed (i.e., the danger posed to the officer). (Rousseau (9th Cir. 2001) 257 F.3d 925, 929; accord, Antonio B. (2008) 166 Cal.App.4th 435; Celis (2004) 33 Cal.4th 667, 674-675; see also Stier (2009) 168 Cal.App.4th 21, 26-27, stating that officers must employ "the least intrusive means available under the circumstances.")"

And we are still left with the fact that it does nothing to change the OP's situation no matter what we call it. He violated the CVC, he was detained, there was the possibility of an additional criminal offense that apparently necessitated further investigation, and a secure detention may well have been appropriate (I would have done much the same thing). He may have a personnel complaint, or a long shot of a civil rights suit. It's up to him to decide if spending thousands on an attorney with no discernible damages are worth the cost.
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
When I originally read "We basically sit in the car for a good hour ... and go around in circles until we just stop." I thought the "go around" referred to driving around, rather than having a discussion. If the officer was driving the suspect around for an hour, one could argue it was an arrest rather than a mere detention.
Agreed. If they DROVE around, then it was definitely an arrest that would have required release per PC 849. As it is, it appears to be little more than a prolonged detention ... or, for purposes of Miranda and other terms, an "arrest." But, functionally, it was a detention.
 

dave33

Senior Member
Agreed. If they DROVE around, then it was definitely an arrest that would have required release per PC 849. As it is, it appears to be little more than a prolonged detention ... or, for purposes of Miranda and other terms, an "arrest." But, functionally, it was a detention.
Why be afraid to call things what they really are? A cop abusing his authority and possibly causing more harm than good. Driving on the wrong side of the road for a bicycle infraction is ridiculous. Ordering the o.p. is more of the same. Handcuffs and detention ? No reasonable person would agree the officers actions were justified.

I am sure there is an obscure case or law that can support almost any position on the matter, but let's just call a spade a spade.
 

TheGeekess

Keeper of the Kraken
When I originally read "We basically sit in the car for a good hour ... and go around in circles until we just stop." I thought the "go around" referred to driving around, rather than having a discussion. If the officer was driving the suspect around for an hour, one could argue it was an arrest rather than a mere detention.
Agreed. If they DROVE around, then it was definitely an arrest that would have required release per PC 849. As it is, it appears to be little more than a prolonged detention ... or, for purposes of Miranda and other terms, an "arrest." But, functionally, it was a detention.
And I took the 'go round in circles' to mean that the OP was arguing with the officer, not that they were literally riding around the block. :cool:
 

tranquility

Senior Member
Absent other facts, this was an arrest. Carl, accept it.

But, that is a good thing for the officer. If a detention, the reason disappeared when the license was found. What reasonable investigation otherwise?
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
Why be afraid to call things what they really are? A cop abusing his authority and possibly causing more harm than good. Driving on the wrong side of the road for a bicycle infraction is ridiculous.
Not if it was safe to do so and the only way to catch the violator. Or, are you suggesting that as long as the offender keeps violating the law, the police should be unable to apprehend them? ... Please ...

(We also speed, blow lights, chase people through yards without warrants, and even take people down with force as it becomes necessary ... or, should we be limited to politely asking people to give themselves up and asking that they please not harm us in the process?)

Ordering the o.p. is more of the same. Handcuffs and detention ? No reasonable person would agree the officers actions were justified.
If I am alone, I have a subject detained and he gives me what could be a false name, you BET he's going into handcuffs! If I don't know who I have and I am alone, I will take all necessary steps to insure my safety. When you make it your business to contact people in the dead of night, you can gamble with your life. I will not gamble with mine.

The only issue I see here that leaps out as being improper is the length of the detention. Once his identity was established (assuming it was a valid state ID that was presented), there was sufficient time to investigate any other possible crimes (such as the bicycle DUI), and there was time to run the requisite records checks and write the citations, he should have been released. If truly an hour, that sounds unreasonable. But, then, we don't know all the details.
 
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CdwJava

Senior Member
Absent other facts, this was an arrest. Carl, accept it.
It is an arrest for many purposes, but not all. For us, it would be articulated as a detention and no release per PC 849 would be required. If so, then law enforcement has been doing it all wrong since before I entered the career and apparently no one has bothered to relate it to the cops. The law DOES permit us to detain people in cuffs and in a car without requiring probable cause - the standard necessary for an arrest.

But, that is a good thing for the officer. If a detention, the reason disappeared when the license was found. What reasonable investigation otherwise?
You are assuming that the only thing he was investigating at that point was the ID. As I said, if he was detained for an hour, there's a problem. Provided he was not investigating something else.

Even if we call it an "arrest," it doesn't change anything for the OP. He still has a pair of traffic infractions to deal with (one of which he can probably beat handily as he was not riding on the wrong side of the road ... at least at the moment he was stopped), and he has a choice to make as to whether he wants to make a personnel complaint or engage an expensive attorney for a slim chance at monetary gain.
 
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tranquility

Senior Member
The law DOES permit us to detain people in cuffs and in a car without requiring probable cause - the standard necessary for an arrest.
Sigh, they did have probable cause. They guy was riding on the sidewalk without a light at night.

And, while in certain circumstances, detaining a person in cuffs in a care MAY not be an arrest, not here.

yet, "[t]here is clearly no mechanical checklist to distinguish between Terry stops and formal arrest or the equivalent of arrest," id. at 1231. Thus, we held that when a defendant was placed in the back of a patrol car for twenty minutes, questioned, and never informed that he was free to leave, the detention was equivalent to an arrest. United States v. Chamberlin, 644 F.2d 1262, 1267 (9th Cir.1980), cert. denied, 453 U.S. 914, 101 S.Ct. 3148, 69 L.Ed.2d 997 (1981).
 

skyway35

Junior Member
When I originally read "We basically sit in the car for a good hour ... and go around in circles until we just stop." I thought the "go around" referred to driving around, rather than having a discussion. If the officer was driving the suspect around for an hour, one could argue it was an arrest rather than a mere detention.
We sat in the car as it was parked (illegally). We went around in circles was a reference to the discussions. He continued to cite me giving a fake name as a justification for the detention after having obtained my current Driver License and verified its validity as my ID. That he continued to do so-whether there is any legal recourse for me on the matter or not- is, frankly, an embarrassment to law enforcement officers everywhere. After being corrected by me, that's when the alcohol questions started.
 

skyway35

Junior Member
Why be afraid to call things what they really are? A cop abusing his authority and possibly causing more harm than good. Driving on the wrong side of the road for a bicycle infraction is ridiculous. Ordering the o.p. is more of the same. Handcuffs and detention ? No reasonable person would agree the officers actions were justified.

I am sure there is an obscure case or law that can support almost any position on the matter, but let's just call a spade a spade.
Exactly. I'm plenty aware that any case involving a civilian's word against that of an officer is doomed no matter what the actual circumstances were.

I will be filing a complaint this weekend when I get some spare time.
 

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