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Can borrowed money count as income in income based housing?

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Gail in Georgia

Senior Member
It would appear HUD isn't buying your claim that pay back after death is a valid criteria for it being a loan and thus THEY are the ones stating this is income, not the so-called "greedy" landlord.

What a tenant is responsible for in regards to their share of the rent will vary depending on their "income". This can change frequently throughout the months and years of renting.

It is ironic that someone who was previously responsible for only $50 of their rent is now complaining of an increase that is still less than $250 a month while enjoying this so called "loan".
 

Zigner

Senior Member, Non-Attorney
Even if it's a gift, it's excluded.

Having said that...now we see that this is a "successful business person" who is giving him the money. I'm thinking that the old saying "if it walks like a duck and quack likes a duck, then it's a duck" is being applied here.
 

Dandy Don

Senior Member
It was an error on your part to tell them about this money (but I do applaud your honesty), because they would not have found out about it otherwise.
However, what's done is done.

How much money did you receive from this advance?

How much money do you expect to receive in the future from this inheritance?
 

LdiJ

Senior Member
I am sorry, but you do not understand what I am telling you therefore I am not of any use to you. I hope you are able to find assistance. Good luck.
 

Rekall

Member
It was an error on your part to tell them about this money (but I do applaud your honesty), because they would not have found out about it otherwise.
However, what's done is done.

How much money did you receive from this advance?

How much money do you expect to receive in the future from this inheritance?
All government programs require complete financial records {especially bank accounts, etc.} .
Also, not telling them about money may be construed as fraud.

Advance? - What advance?

It's borrowed money against my estate - payable on death.
They accepted this year one and now say 'no' - they want to charge me 30% of it towards rent,
almost $200.00 per month, about $2,500.00 per year. And if your in a low income apartment, that's a lot of money.
 

Dandy Don

Senior Member
How much did you borrow?

I have found it helpful to look at the operational handbook for HUD to get an inside view of how they operate.

If we assume that your building is a Subsidized Multifamily Housing Program (Handbook 4350.3), please look at the 81-page PDF file for Chapter 5--DETERMINING INCOME AND CALCULATING RENT.

https://www.hud.gov/program_offices/administration/hudclips/handbooks/hsgh/4350.3

Page 27 describes "Calculating Income from Assets when Assets Total $5,000.00 or Less"--they can only use the actual amount you have already received (what you borrowed) to calculate your rent, not what the total value of the payable on death amount is.

Page 35, Section 3--"Lump Sum Receipt Counted as Assets"--includes any amount received in a one-time lump sum payment.

If you don't agree with (or don't fully understand) the methods or justification of how your rent was calculated, you can ask for an appeal or a review of the decision so that a different housing authority employee can explain to you the methods they used to calculate, and you should also ask to see the income calculation guidelines in whatever handbook they are using so that you can verify what you are being told.
 

Rekall

Member
How much did you borrow?

I have found it helpful to look at the operational handbook for HUD to get an inside view of how they operate.

If we assume that your building is a Subsidized Multifamily Housing Program (Handbook 4350.3), please look at the 81-page PDF file for Chapter 5--DETERMINING INCOME AND CALCULATING RENT.

https://www.hud.gov/program_offices/administration/hudclips/handbooks/hsgh/4350.3

Page 27 describes "Calculating Income from Assets when Assets Total $5,000.00 or Less"--they can only use the actual amount you have already received (what you borrowed) to calculate your rent, not what the total value of the payable on death amount is.

Page 35, Section 3--"Lump Sum Receipt Counted as Assets"--includes any amount received in a one-time lump sum payment.

If you don't agree with (or don't fully understand) the methods or justification of how your rent was calculated, you can ask for an appeal or a review of the decision so that a different housing authority employee can explain to you the methods they used to calculate, and you should also ask to see the income calculation guidelines in whatever handbook they are using so that you can verify what you are being told.
Thanks a lot Dandy Don,
I researched that link - most interesting
Apparently, while the Census Bureau {https://www.hud.gov/sites/documents/CALCULATINGATTACHMENT.PDF } specifically excludes loans {borrowed money} from being counted as income
- the HUD document link given does not - I did not see any specific exclusion in their list of exclusions for borrowed
money - And recurrent gifts {what their representative is now calling the money I'm receiving monthly} are in fact included as calculable income.
While I'm not happy about this, I still feel somewhat better in seeing the logic behind their calculations
- I might still consider disputing it, but what chance would I have in winning? And most lawyers don't want
to bother with this type of case.

I've given you positive feedback.

Thanks again,
- Rekall
 
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commentator

Senior Member
After many years of calculating incomes based on federal guidelines, I can certainly tell you that yes, the HUD people would very likely have found out about this big swop of money landing in the participant's bank account. When you sign up for one of the income based programs, you sign away privacy rights, and give them the access to almost all your financial information. It goes with the territory.

Big sudden infusions of cash into your income are very common and are always a problem for such programs. And you're probably not the first person they've had to deal with who claimed this sudden infusion of cash is a gift, a loan, found money, etc. this month. As a society, we have determined that we want this sort of program monitored to the max. So they tend to do it just this way.

They tend to be very suspicious, after all, this could be that this was your share of the drug money, your share of the bank robbery haul, your cash you stole from someone. People rarely "gift" others money, or loan others large sums, especially low income people. People do frequently inherit money, and that's available for you to live on now, so it is generally includable income.

I cringe when I see these set up show type things where the really destitute person is "blessed" by a rich person with a big infusion of cash. I have seen cases of where people refused inheritances, because it will in the long term, mess up their Medicaid and housing benefits worse than it would help them on the short term.

Now, you should appeal this to the next level in the program. You will, before proceeding much further or having any chance of getting things changed, need a clear definitive answer as to why your windfall was considered includable income. You won't get that by arguing with the local person who has done your certification, regardless of how many of their own statutes you cite and quote back to them. The truth is, they do it all the time, you don't. You do not need to cite law, quote statutes or make some brilliant statement. You just appeal through all levels of appeal.

Just remember that the government, matrix of evil, is not out to get you personally, they just have ways they go about things, and believe me, they've seen and heard it before, and they have certain expectations as to how their clients are usually going to behave and finance their lives based on these repetitions of what they've seen. That's what they look for.

It was a very good decision that you have told them about the situation before they found out you got it and called it fraud. Which they were expecting out of everyone and would've been checking everyone for. It may be that they can find it possible, with your explanations, to see it clear to accept your explanations of what happened and change their determination. But then, it's not really likely.

As it has been pointed out, we are not in the position, do not have your very personal exact information and even if we did, we do not have the expertise with this program necessary to explain to you exactly what you have done to cause your gifted/loaned whatever-ed income to be included and your rate to be raised.

And once you have had a decision about your case, as in you were told you'd have to pay more, an appeal must go through the proper channels. So you would, if you get an attorney and fight this, have to know exactly why, according to HUD, you have been refused. What are they calling this money? The Legal aid program in your area may offer you some real guidance about appealing a HUD decision, you should seek out and speak with them. They're the legal entity that deals with a lot of business in this area. I frankly would think you're just going to have to end up paying the extra, but discuss this with legal aid and keep the appeal going up to the last rung of the ladder.
 
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Rekall

Member
After many years of calculating incomes based on federal guidelines, I can certainly tell you that yes, the HUD people would very likely have found out about this big swop of money landing in the participant's bank account. When you sign up for one of the income based programs, you sign away privacy rights, and give them the access to almost all your financial information. It goes with the territory.

Big sudden infusions of cash into your income are very common and are always a problem for such programs. And you're probably not the first person they've had to deal with who claimed this sudden infusion of cash is a gift, a loan, found money, etc. this month. As a society, we have determined that we want this sort of program monitored to the max. So they tend to do it just this way.........
NOT THE WAY IT HAPPENED - As I stated 'nothing' has changed from last year to this year - Money inherited was already inherited and money being loaned has stayed the same - And I gave them copies of my bank account to verify all the facts.

What has changed is the way they are calculating rent - First year money being borrowed was accepted as such and not counted as income. Now they are saying that the way the money is being received {monthly} makes it countable.
And case worker says that the fact that the money may be paid back by will upon death is not sufficient to make it
a loan in their eyes. - They still see countable income and they want 30% of it for rent.
 

Rekall

Member
NOT THE WAY IT HAPPENED - As I stated 'nothing' has changed from last year to this year - Money inherited was already inherited and money being loaned has stayed the same - And I gave them copies of my bank account to verify all the facts.

What has changed is the way they are calculating rent - First year money being borrowed was accepted as such and not counted as income. Now they are saying that the way the money is being received {monthly} makes it countable.
And case worker says that the fact that the money may be paid back by will upon death is not sufficient to make it
a loan in their eyes. - They still see countable income and they want 30% of it for rent.
AND THE ANSWER IS SOMETHING HAS CHANGED FROM LAST YEAR:

"President Donald Trump’s fiscal year 2020 budget request – released today - proposes to drastically cut housing benefits that help millions of low-income seniors, people with disabilities, families with children, veterans, and other vulnerable people afford their homes. Like his other budget requests in FY18 and FY19, the proposal would reduce housing benefits for the lowest-income people by slashing federal investments in affordable homes, increasing rents, and imposing harmful work requirements on America’s struggling families. If enacted, the budget could leave even more low-income people without stable homes, undermining family stability, increasing evictions, and, in worst cases, leading to more homelessness.

Overall, the administration proposes to cut HUD by an astounding $9.6 billion or 18% below 2019 enacted levels, imposing deep cuts to affordable housing and community development, as well as other essential programs that ensure basic living standards.

At a time when the affordable housing crisis has reached new heights and homelessness is increasing in some communities, the president’s proposal would eliminate or deeply cut essential housing and community development programs like the national Housing Trust Fund, the HOME Investments Partnership program, and public housing capital repairs.

The president would underfund rental assistance through the Housing Choice Voucher program and raise rents - by as much as three times current levels - on America’s poorest families. While the administration suggests its proposed budget would provide an increase in funding to the voucher program, this is misleading; the budget, in fact, includes cuts to housing assistance."

Quote source:
https://nlihc.org/resource/president-trump-proposes-drastic-cuts-affordable-housing-programs

So yes, everything is the same as last year except our billionaire President has decided to raise my rent by 5X
what it was - Indirectly, if not directly. He and his administration are dividing America more than ever.

I blogged for Trump and probably helped him win over Clinton in 2016 - But now I see I'm older and more
disabled than I thought - It was a big mistake - Yes, he is guilty of 'Abuse of Power'
 

Gail in Georgia

Senior Member
"So yes, everything is the same as last year except our billionaire President has decided to raise my rent by 5X
what it was - Indirectly, if not directly."

So now the president is making you pay less than $250 for your share of the rent?

Gail
 

Just Blue

Senior Member
"So yes, everything is the same as last year except our billionaire President has decided to raise my rent by 5X
what it was - Indirectly, if not directly."

So now the president is making you pay less than $250 for your share of the rent?

Gail
The President OP blogged for during the campaign ...kinda karmic.
 

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