Can I sue a private government contractor for refusing to product public records? Cloud defense.

[ForPublicRecord]

What is the name of your state? FL.

I was wondering if I could sue a private government contractor for failing to provide public record?

There is a civil technology company in Florida who basically run almost all the county court's website.

Normally, if you want to look up a public record, you can go on their site and get the court record.

They are basically the internet face of the court's documents.

The problem is the document I am trying to get creates an error message because it's too big. I have contacted the support about this but say stuff like " I missed the part where that's my problem" then mark the trouble ticket as resolved.

I have resorted to filing a public records request, which I believe in the state of Florida you are allowed to do of a private company that get taxpayer money to perform a service for the public .

Their argument is that they don't have any documents, they just have a website with "pointers to documents" which I think mean " links to the document" .
These documents normally are being opened right on their website with their name name all over the website.

So I think its like someone running a website and saying during a subpoena like " I don't have any videos or pictures, I just have links and porters on my website to AWS(Amazon web services), or youtube, or facebook, or google drive, etc... " then claiming that you have no pictures or documents related to the search.

I think this company has the ability to get those documents but are trying to play word games with like " I don't have the document, its on the internet not on my desktop computer"

I have heard the federal government uses Amazon Web Services(AWS) for a lot of stuff, but I'm not sure if that would shield them from a FIOA request if the department utilized them to serve up documents on their department website.

Do you think I have a case against this government contractor for refusing to provide the public record?

Regards

 

[quincy]

What is the name of your state? FL.

I was wondering if I could sue a private government contractor for failing to provide public record?

There is a civil technology company in Florida who basically run almost all the county court's website.

Normally, if you want to look up a public record, you can go on their site and get the court record.

They are basically the internet face of the court's documents.

The problem is the document I am trying to get creates an error message because it's too big. I have contacted the support about this but say stuff like " I missed the part where that's my problem" then mark the trouble ticket as resolved.

I have resorted to filing a public records request, which I believe in the state of Florida you are allowed to do of a private company that get taxpayer money to perform a service for the public .

Their argument is that they don't have any documents, they just have a website with "pointers to documents" which I think mean " links to the document" .
These documents normally are being opened right on their website with their name name all over the website.

So I think its like someone running a website and saying during a subpoena like " I don't have any videos or pictures, I just have links and porters on my website to AWS(Amazon web services), or youtube, or facebook, or google drive, etc... " then claiming that you have no pictures or documents related to the search.

I think this company has the ability to get those documents but are trying to play word games with like " I don't have the document, its on the internet not on my desktop computer"

I have heard the federal government uses Amazon Web Services(AWS) for a lot of stuff, but I'm not sure if that would shield them from a FIOA request if the department utilized them to serve up documents on their department website.

Do you think I have a case against this government contractor for refusing to provide the public record?

Regards

I doubt that you have a case against the contractor for refusing to provide a public record.

If the documents you want are available online, why can’t you download them yourself?

 

[LdiJ]

What is the name of your state? FL.

I was wondering if I could sue a private government contractor for failing to provide public record?

There is a civil technology company in Florida who basically run almost all the county court's website.

Normally, if you want to look up a public record, you can go on their site and get the court record.

They are basically the internet face of the court's documents.

The problem is the document I am trying to get creates an error message because it's too big. I have contacted the support about this but say stuff like " I missed the part where that's my problem" then mark the trouble ticket as resolved.

I have resorted to filing a public records request, which I believe in the state of Florida you are allowed to do of a private company that get taxpayer money to perform a service for the public .

Their argument is that they don't have any documents, they just have a website with "pointers to documents" which I think mean " links to the document" .
These documents normally are being opened right on their website with their name name all over the website.

So I think its like someone running a website and saying during a subpoena like " I don't have any videos or pictures, I just have links and porters on my website to AWS(Amazon web services), or youtube, or facebook, or google drive, etc... " then claiming that you have no pictures or documents related to the search.

I think this company has the ability to get those documents but are trying to play word games with like " I don't have the document, its on the internet not on my desktop computer"

I have heard the federal government uses Amazon Web Services(AWS) for a lot of stuff, but I'm not sure if that would shield them from a FIOA request if the department utilized them to serve up documents on their department website.

Do you think I have a case against this government contractor for refusing to provide the public record?

Regards

In my opinion, no you do not. If the contractor is only providing links to the documents then the contractor has no control over the website where the documents are actually stored. Therefore, if there is a technical glitch with one of the documents, the contractor cannot fix that glitch, whomever owns the website where the documents are stored (presumably the county court) is the only one who can fix the glitch and/or provide the document by some other means.

You are angry with the wrong entity. You are making demands of an entity who is unable to comply with your demands.

 

[LdiJ]

I doubt that you have a case against the contractor for refusing to provide a public record.

If the documents you want are available online, why can’t you download them yourself?

He/she explained that:

"The problem is the document I am trying to get creates an error message because it's too big"

 

[Zigner]

He/she explained that:

"The problem is the document I am trying to get creates an error message because it's too big"

That sort of error is normally the receiver's problem, not the provider's problem.

 

[adjusterjack]

Do you think I have a case against this government contractor for refusing to provide the public record?

Tilt at windmills much?

You jonesing for the document go to the courthouse and get it.

 

[quincy]

… You jonesing for the document go to the courthouse and get it.

… and expect to pay a per-page cost. These costs in Florida can be substantial - and the wait for copies can be long.

 

[zddoodah]

I was wondering if I could sue a private government contractor for failing to provide public record?

Anyone can sue anyone for anything, but the ability to sue is meaningless unless there is a likelihood of success, and that can't be assessed intelligently without more information.

the document I am trying to get

What is that document? Given your description of what this company does, it sounds like it's a document filed in some pending or completed lawsuit or criminal case. If that's correct, are you a party to the case? If so, you should have a copy of the document as a result of having had it served on you (or having created it yourself). Either way, why can't you just go down to the courthouse and get a copy?

 

[quincy]

Here is a link to frequently asked questions about Florida’s public records act:

https://www.floridapolicy.org/posts/government-transparency-and-peoples-right-to-know-frequently-asked-questions-about-florida-public-records-act

 

[ForPublicRecord]

I doubt that you have a case against the contractor for refusing to provide a public record.

If the documents you want are available online, why can’t you download them yourself?

The private contractor runs the website that you can download them online. In fact, the document is there but does not work because it's more than 15 pages. For some reason, the program always tries to open up the document in your web browser instead of giving you an option just to download the file to your PC then open it.

So when you click on the public available document, it returns an error message asking you to email their company.

If you email the company, they will immediately close your trouble ticket and refer you to the court clerk. The court clerk when contacted will refer you to the website which is run by these private contractors and the process just repeats itself in a loop.

How can you force a government contractor to fix something on their website when you have already alerted them it does not work, but they don't care?

What options are you left with?

 

[ForPublicRecord]

In my opinion, no you do not. If the contractor is only providing links to the documents then the contractor has no control over the website where the documents are actually stored. Therefore, if there is a technical glitch with one of the documents, the contractor cannot fix that glitch, whomever owns the website where the documents are stored (presumably the county court) is the only one who can fix the glitch and/or provide the document by some other means.

You are angry with the wrong entity. You are making demands of an entity who is unable to comply with your demands.

The glitch is the website/public portal, which crashes at any document that is 15 pages or more.

The court contracts with this company to run the public portal and fix these problems, however they do not lift a finger to fix it. In fact, they lie and mark the ticket as resolved when they have not fixed anything.

When I contact the clerk, they just open up a trouble ticket with this company, which gets immediately marked as resolved when nothing was resolved.

Since the company refuses to fix the website, I am left without the ability to get public record. Is this a way for government to escape FOIA public records request? Hire a private contractor to make a website that does not work, then wash their hands of the entire situation?

 

[ForPublicRecord]

That sort of error is normally the receiver's problem, not the provider's problem.

No, it does a server error message, which the company said they get too. They admitted their server crashes the request for documents 15 pages or more.

 

[ForPublicRecord]

Tilt at windmills much?

You jonesing for the document go to the courthouse and get it.

You want me to drive for days to get a document that is available because they refuse to fix a glitch or just email it to me? This court is not local for me.

 

[ForPublicRecord]

Here is a link to frequently asked questions about Florida’s public records act:

https://www.floridapolicy.org/posts/government-transparency-and-peoples-right-to-know-frequently-asked-questions-about-florida-public-records-act

It said that "Floridians have a powerful statutory and constitutional right to access most of the records held by state and local governmental agencies. " ......some private entities — are subject to the Public Records Act...........By law, agencies have a duty to promptly acknowledge requests for public records and respond to the request in good faith. This means that, not only do state agencies have a duty to produce public records when requested, but they must also do so without unjustified delay"


Does not sound like they are operating in good faith to me.

 

[ForPublicRecord]

Here is a link to frequently asked questions about Florida’s public records act:

https://www.floridapolicy.org/posts/government-transparency-and-peoples-right-to-know-frequently-asked-questions-about-florida-public-records-act

What about the general concept that someone is immune from a subpoena or public records request if they have the ability to get the record, but they are storing it on a cloud server such as Amazon Web Services(AWS) as many government agencies do.

A person may have the documents stored on Google Drive or Microsoft Office 365 online. Would this shield them from having to produce the document? If they have access to it, but it's not stored on their PC?

Thanks.