Christmas day 'emergency' - help

[meldresler]

I'm in KY, my ex is in VA.

At the end of the summer, I was able to relocate to a new state with my 5 (now 6) year old daughter. We had gone through mediation and worked out a separation agreement. She lives with me, but visits him alternate holidays and some time during the summer. They have never had much of a relationship - she's scared to be with him for any amount of time (he's just short-tempered, anger issues), but if anything the separation has been improving their relationship, and I've strongly promoted a healthy relationship with him.

Anyhow, the separation agreement says that he gets her alternate Christmas-es (the first half of the school break), and also says that for the first year, I get full discretion to modify the terms or circumstances of the visitations. Something like that.

So we drove here to Virginia and he's been spending quality time with her for the last few days. Then this morning she opened her presents and was playing with her toys at his house. I left to drive 10 miles to my hotel, and the plan was that he would take her to the traditional gathering of his family later this afternoon. An hour after I arrived at my hotel, he called and said she was crying hysterically for me. I said "bring her here"; he said "OK". Then he called 20 minutes later and she was still crying hysterically in the background - he said he couldn't find her shoes - I said I had plenty of shoes, just come.

So he arrived at the hotel and I cuddled with her on the bed and said "So she can stay here with me while you go up there?" and he said "NO! This is a family gathering and she WILL BE THERE!" He was screaming and saying he didn't care that she was crying. He said that she better start to transition to spending time with him OR ELSE. He said that he was only having problems because I wouldn't get out of the way. [I said "But I'm here in a hotel!"]. She was screaming and asking to stay and he said I had better get out of the way because he was going to take her by force. Then he grabbed my wrist, tightly, and lurched it behind my back/head in a way that could have hurt me (I thought my arm was going to break) but didn't actually do any damage. For what it's worth, grabbing my wrist had no relation to anything else - he wasn't trying to get access to her - he was just angry and taking it out physically.

He was screaming, insulting me (you're mentally ill and everyone knows it), threatening me (I'll take you to court), etc. My daughter was just screaming, saying she was afraid to go with him. I just asked him to be gentle with her, to let her have a happy holiday, to calm down, to give her time, etc.

He finally left ... without her ... and for what it's worth, she was terrified.

First, did I really show any interference here, considering that I was at a hotel and he brought her to me? (And the separation agreement says that I have full discretion. Something like that. And in addition, I didn't fail to bring her to town, etc.). Second, should I report the physical force anywhere? Would that be taken seriously? It was rather scary.

 

[CourtClerk]

Anyhow, the separation agreement says that he gets her alternate Christmas-es (the first half of the school break), and also says that for the first year, I get full discretion to modify the terms or circumstances of the visitations. Something like that.

I sure hope you packed a copy of your CO. Go get it, type the exact wording, then I'll have an answer for you.

 

[BL]

I'm in KY, my ex is in VA.

At the end of the summer, I was able to relocate to a new state with my 5 (now 6) year old daughter. We had gone through mediation and worked out a separation agreement. She lives with me, but visits him alternate holidays and some time during the summer. They have never had much of a relationship - she's scared to be with him for any amount of time (he's just short-tempered, anger issues), but if anything the separation has been improving their relationship, and I've strongly promoted a healthy relationship with him.

Anyhow, the separation agreement says that he gets her alternate Christmas-es (the first half of the school break), and also says that for the first year, I get full discretion to modify the terms or circumstances of the visitations. Something like that.

So we drove here to Virginia and he's been spending quality time with her for the last few days. Then this morning she opened her presents and was playing with her toys at his house. I left to drive 10 miles to my hotel, and the plan was that he would take her to the traditional gathering of his family later this afternoon. An hour after I arrived at my hotel, he called and said she was crying hysterically for me. I said "bring her here"; he said "OK". Then he called 20 minutes later and she was still crying hysterically in the background - he said he couldn't find her shoes - I said I had plenty of shoes, just come.

So he arrived at the hotel and I cuddled with her on the bed and said "So she can stay here with me while you go up there?" and he said "NO! This is a family gathering and she WILL BE THERE!" He was screaming and saying he didn't care that she was crying. He said that she better start to transition to spending time with him OR ELSE. He said that he was only having problems because I wouldn't get out of the way. [I said "But I'm here in a hotel!"]. She was screaming and asking to stay and he said I had better get out of the way because he was going to take her by force. Then he grabbed my wrist, tightly, and lurched it behind my back/head in a way that could have hurt me (I thought my arm was going to break) but didn't actually do any damage. For what it's worth, grabbing my wrist had no relation to anything else - he wasn't trying to get access to her - he was just angry and taking it out physically.

He was screaming, insulting me (you're mentally ill and everyone knows it), threatening me (I'll take you to court), etc. My daughter was just screaming, saying she was afraid to go with him. I just asked him to be gentle with her, to let her have a happy holiday, to calm down, to give her time, etc.

He finally left ... without her ... and for what it's worth, she was terrified.

First, did I really show any interference here, considering that I was at a hotel and he brought her to me? (And the separation agreement says that I have full discretion. Something like that. And in addition, I didn't fail to bring her to town, etc.). Second, should I report the physical force anywhere? Would that be taken seriously? It was rather scary.

What was the intention of the Father bringing the daughter to you , 10 miles away to begin with ?

Seriously , how long did Dad have the daughter before she started her hysteria ?

Sounds more like someone wanted to start an argument , putting the kid in the middle .

He should have just kept her with him , until it was time to return her .

Now the daughter has a mind set all she has to do is throw a fit .

Great going to both adults .

 

[majomom1]

What was the intention of the Father bringing the daughter to you , 10 miles away to begin with ?

Seriously , how long did Dad have the daughter before she started her hysteria ?

Sounds more like someone wanted to start an argument , putting the kid in the middle .

He should have just kept her with him , until it was time to return her .

Now the daughter has a mind set all she has to do is throw a fit .

Great going to both adults .

Yea... I got this same impression. Sounds like mom used the "full discretion to modify the terms or circumstances of the visitations. Something like that."

They were fine for a couple days, then wham? Some thing is missing here. Dad should not have gotten physical, but I don't think he drove her to the hotel for no reason either.

 

[meldresler]

courtclerk, I have the agreement in my room (I'm in the business center of this hotel). I'll try to get the wording re the discretion.

I don't know the intention in bringing her to my room. It's beyond the capability of my mind right now. That really seemed to be the crux here ... I just tried to do what I was supposed to do and get out of the way (at a hotel, providing him with my contact info). If he brings her to me crying, it seems to be saying "I don't know what to do; the situation is beyond my ability".

I don't really need to get into the whole thing now, but I can't even leave her with him to run to the grocery store (never in 6 years have been able to just leave her with him, although she'll stay with other people, babysitters, etc.). She's very afraid of him, and her emotion is real, not manipulative.

 

[majomom1]

courtclerk, I have the agreement in my room (I'm in the business center of this hotel). I'll try to get the wording re the discretion.

I don't know the intention in bringing her to my room. It's beyond the capability of my mind right now. That really seemed to be the crux here ... I just tried to do what I was supposed to do and get out of the way (at a hotel, providing him with my contact info). If he brings her to me crying, it seems to be saying "I don't know what to do; the situation is beyond my ability".

I don't really need to get into the whole thing now, but I can't even leave her with him to run to the grocery store (never in 6 years have been able to just leave her with him, although she'll stay with other people, babysitters, etc.). She's very afraid of him, and her emotion is real, not manipulative.

You told him to bring her to the hotel. Or so you said in your original post.

Something isn't ringing true here. You need to answer Blonde's question, how long did it take for her do get hysterical? And you need to provide the exact wording in the court order.

You are gonna have a tough time convincing us that Dad came to the hotel and was just out of control, for no reason. Your information so far is vague.

 

[BL]

You told him to bring her to the hotel. Or so you said in your original post.

Something isn't ringing true here. You need to answer Blonde's question, how long did it take for her do get hysterical? And you need to provide the exact wording in the court order.

You are gonna have a tough time convincing us that Dad came to the hotel and was just out of control, for no reason. Your information so far is vague.

So we drove here to Virginia and he's been spending quality time with her for the last few days. Then this morning she opened her presents and was playing with her toys at his house. I left to drive 10 miles to my hotel, and the plan was that he would take her to the traditional gathering of his family later this afternoon. An hour after I arrived at my hotel, he called and said she was crying hysterically for me. I said "bring her here"; he said "OK". Then he called 20 minutes later and she was still crying hysterically in the background - he said he couldn't find her shoes - I said I had plenty of shoes, just come.

Yes something is astray , unless mom spent the few days of quality time with Dad and Daughter .

 

[MrsK]

BTW- yes, you do need to report the assault. Why do you even need to ask, that is a no brainer.

 

[Suzz]

Separate Issues

Then he grabbed my wrist, tightly, and lurched it behind my back/head in a way that could have hurt me (I thought my arm was going to break) but didn't actually do any damage. For what it's worth, grabbing my wrist had no relation to anything else - he wasn't trying to get access to her - he was just angry and taking it out physically.

Second, should I report the physical force anywhere? Would that be taken seriously? It was rather scary.

The other issue aside for a moment, him grabbing you is a separate issue. He had no right to do this under ANY circumstance and it is considered battery. VA may even consider it domestic assault because you were once married and you share a child, but I don't know.

If this was all in front of your daughter, especially if it has happened before, I can understand her fear of him.

If this is some sort of pattern from him (or really, even if it isn't), please protect yourself and your daughter, but don't do so in a malicious or retaliatory manner.

 

[meldresler]

OK, I'm back. Let's see, to answer your questions ... I've mentioned a few times that my daughter is afraid to be left with her father. Like, if I say "hey, I'm running to the grocery store, I'll be back in 15 minutes" she'll run to my side and cry if she thinks she is being left with him. He will also freely admit that in her entire life, she has only been alone with him maybe a dozen times - I'm really not kidding. She's overly attached to me, but she is considered by teachers and everyone to be extremely happy and emotionally well adjusted. And I think I mentioned that she'll happily stay with babysitters, other family members, etc. She's just afraid of him because of his sharpness, quick temper, lack of patience, yelling ...

When we worked out our separation agreement, I said that, to ease her transition, he was welcome to come to our new house and stay in the guest bedroom and I'd try to stay out of the way. He's done that a few times since our separation in August. I also came to our (old) house once before, and just tried to hole up in the guest bedroom. This was my second visit back here and I had been doing this "holing" up in the guest bedroom for a couple of nights (2 or 3?), but I thought, for Christmas, it would be nice if I could be in a hotel.

So ... yesterday and today, my daughter would not let me leave until her neighbor friend came over to play and then she really didn't care if I left. So today the neighbor friend showed up around 11:30AM and I said "I'm heading to my hotel" and my daughter said "great". I knew that around 1PM or 2PM, they would leave to see my ex-husband's family and would be home late, and I was unsure where everyone would sleep tonight. So, I had been at my hotel for about ... I can't remember ... an hour when he called and said she was hysterical. In hindsight, I guess he told the neighbor friend that he had to go home because they were getting ready to leave.

I did tell him to bring her to me ... if she had been crying but not hysterical I might have just tried to comfort her over the phone, but she was hysterical and I'm her mother, so I said what I would always say "bring her to me". That would be my instinct if it happened again. He could have said "no, we're fine" but clearly they weren't. It's really difficult for me to second guess my reaction if my child is hysterical and asking for me.

Here is some of the wording from the separation agreement:

section 1(c) ... "...although we shall strive for [the father's] time with our minor child to be continuous and uninterrupted one-on-one time, we recognize that initially [the father's] one-on-one time with our minor child might not be continuous and uninterrupted; for example, we may decide it's best for our minor child that [the father] spends the night at a hotel while our minor child remains at [the mother's] house for the night or that [the mother] rejoins [the father] and our minor child for dinner. We recognize that this Agreement contemplates significant changes for all of us. If it becomes evident that our plans, including, but not limited to the Visitation Schedule described below, are not working for either of us or our minor child, then we agree to work together to create mutually acceptable arrangements that will address any issues that arise, ..."

section 1.c.ii. ... "We shall be mindful of the total length of each Holiday/vacation Visitation and take into consideration the lengths of visitation our minor child has experienced and become comfortable with to the point. We agree that the times prescribed below are our goal, but recognize that our minor child may need some time to evolve to the full time described ..."

section 1.c.ii.2 ... (this starts by saying that the first half of christmas is when school ends to 12/27) ... "We acknowledge that the 1st half of christmas shall include Christmas Eve and Christmas Day and that the 2nd half of Christmas shall include New Year's and New Year's Day"

[there are a couple of references to illness; I wouldn't say that my daughter is really sick, but she did develop a bad cold and is warm to the touch, which was one reason I was asking him to go easy on her]

... 1.c.iii "we recognize that our Visitation Schedule contemplates our minor child and each of us being in good health and that if any of us are ever sick, we may have to adjust our visitation plans to accommodate the respective person's needs".

There are other sections which discuss civility and refraining from arguing or raising voices in front of our child.

 

[meldresler]

The other issue aside for a moment, him grabbing you is a separate issue. He had no right to do this under ANY circumstance and it is considered battery. VA may even consider it domestic assault because you were once married and you share a child, but I don't know.

If this was all in front of your daughter, especially if it has happened before, I can understand her fear of him.

If this is some sort of pattern from him (or really, even if it isn't), please protect yourself and your daughter, but don't do so in a malicious or retaliatory manner.

MrsK: where do I report this kind of battery? police? attorney?

Suzz: I honestly don't recall ever being grabbed before. He's tried to physically corner me to yell at me, but I just don't recall anything physical before and I assume I would remember. It was a surprising line he crossed. He did once (on Christmas, 3 years ago) refuse to get me medical attention when I couldn't see in one of my eyes because he wanted to see his family (turned out to be intra-retinal hemorrhage). That was the end for me. He's one of these angry guys who externalizes blame in a huge way. He has a short fuse, screams a lot, everyone else is at fault. [I'm so glad I got out and it was going well until today ...].

 

[Suzz]

MrsK: where do I report this kind of battery? police? attorney?

Call the local law enforcement agency

 

[IndyDad1on1]

First off addressing the assault matter. As someone else said "report it".

Second in regards to the child visitation.

Anyhow, the separation agreement says that he gets her alternate Christmas-es (the first half of the school break), and also says that for the first year, I get full discretion to modify the terms or circumstances of the visitations. Something like that.

Refering to the bolded portion. I have yet to see any reference in the agreement you posted proving this statement is true. What I did see is the following:

If it becomes evident that our plans, including, but not limited to the Visitation Schedule described below, are not working for either of us or our minor child, then we agree to work together to create mutually acceptable arrangements that will address any issues that arise, ..."

In respects to that you stated in your original post:

So he arrived at the hotel and I cuddled with her on the bed and said "So she can stay here with me while you go up there?" and he said "NO! This is a family gathering and she WILL BE THERE!"

By stating she would stay there with you, you did not agree to work together as you agree to in your own agreement.

I can see why father agreed to bring your daughter to the hotel as you asked. Sounds to me he was hoping you would be able to calm her down and that the visit would go as planned. Instead of talking about why the child was upset you decided to just assume it was better for her to stay there then continue to work on the already progressing relationship between daughter and father.

Please note that it was not appropriate for either person to argue, yell or insult the other in front of your child. Nor was it appropriate for anyone to become forceful or abusive in anyway with the other person.

Parents need to learn to control (in all respects of the word) themselves in or around their children "PERIOD" and do what is best for the child not the parents. Although you may have thought you were doing this, truth is I see many areas where this is questionable.

Both parents need to encourage parenting time with the other parent even when the child does not want to participate.

By asking him to bring her to the hotel and expect him to leave her with you will show the "but if anything the separation has been improving their relationship" statement you made will quickly vanish.

Sorry but I see where both parents did not do their part to ensure a happy visit especially with it being Christmas.

 

[meldresler]

Yeah, I do appreciate hearing this perspective, even though you're saying I didn't handle this correctly. I'm not posting here for flattery - I'm really trying to figure out where this went wrong. I just ... worry about traumatizing my daughter. In my life, I may have gained some strength from hardship, but never from trauma and she was distraught and not really feeling well.

I've read the agreement a half dozen times since my original post. Before signing, I was reviewing the agreement with an attorney and she said "wow, I can't believe how it gives you (the mother) full discretion to modify the visitations" but I agree with the above post, I can't find the wording she was talking about. The mediation was really brutal and so I was surprised to hear this attorney say that, as a whole, the agreement gave me a lot of latitude.

Sorry everyone, have to run and I may not have computer access for a couple of days, depending.

 

[J2007]

Meldresler...

my 5 yr old screams and kicks almost every time when we meet with his dad for visitation. He loves his dad, but he loves me, too. He doesn't want to leave Mommy - period. When he was about 3, we let him stay with me once (This was the first time he kicked/screamed/cried/etc. - my ex and I mutally agreed that he probably needed to stay with me.. quite honestly, we were scared! ha ha!)

WELL, guess what happened then - for the next couple of visits, he tried the same stunt! As HEARTBREAKING as it truely was for me, I had to let him go, he deserves time with Dad, too! When my baby is looking at me saying 'Mommy, don't leave me!" with the most pathetic puppy dog eyes ever, I had to be the adult.

Let me ask you this: if she decides that she doesn't like 1st grade and cries hysterically, are you going let her just stay home?

In other words.. your daughter will live without you by her side for a few days.. promise!
I have been in your shoes..

Has he ever shown a propensity for violence against your daughter?