Confused about an ordinance.

[Amusedmom]

Cardington, Ohio

Claimed violated ordinance is 333.03(B)(2). Link to local ordinance: http://whdrane.conwaygreene.com/NXT/gateway.dll?f=templates&fn=default.htm&vid=whdrane:OHCardington

I'm assuming that the charge is going over 25mph. Someone told me it related to school zones. I just need clarification. Also, what is the difference between prima-facie lawful and prima-facie unlawful?

 

[Zigner]

Your ordinance citation is not correct. What were you cited for?

If something is prima-facie lawful, then it is legal. If something is prima-facie unlawful, then it is not legal.

 

[PayrollHRGuy]

I don't see a (B)(2) in there. But the (b) seems to all be school zone related.


333.03 MAXIMUM SPEED LIMITS; ASSURED CLEAR DISTANCE AHEAD.
(a) No person shall operate a motor vehicle at a speed greater or less than is reasonable or proper, having due regard to the traffic, surface and width of the street or highway and any other conditions, and no person shall drive any motor vehicle in and upon any street or highway at a greater speed than will permit the person to bring it to a stop within the assured clear distance ahead.

(b) It is prima-facie lawful, in the absence of a lower limit declared or established pursuant to Ohio R.C. 4511.21 by the Ohio Director of Transportation or Council, for the operator of a motor vehicle to operate the same at a speed not exceeding the following:
(1) A. Twenty miles per hour in school zones during school recess and while children are going to or leaving school during the opening or closing hours, and when twenty miles per hour school speed limit signs are erected; except, that on controlled-access highways and expressways, if the right-of-way line fence has been erected without pedestrian opening, the speed shall be governed by subsection (b)(4) hereof and on freeways, if the right-of-way line fence has been erected without pedestrian opening, the speed shall be governed by subsection (b)(7) hereof. The end of every school zone may be marked by a sign indicating the end of the zone. Nothing in this section or in the manual and specifications for a uniform system of traffic control devices shall be construed to require school zones to be indicated by signs equipped with flashing or other lights, or giving other special notice of the hours in which the school zone speed limit is in effect.
B. As used in this section, "school" means any school chartered under Ohio R.C. 3301.16 and any nonchartered school that during the preceding year filed with the Department of Education in compliance with rule 3301-35-08 of the Ohio Administrative Code, a copy of the school's report for the parents of the school's pupils certifying that the school meets Ohio minimum standards for nonchartered, nontax-supported schools and presents evidence of this filing to the jurisdiction from which it is requesting the establishment of a school zone.
C. As used in this section, "school zone" means that portion of a street or highway passing a school fronting upon the street or highway that is encompassed by projecting the school property lines to the fronting street or highway. Upon request from the Municipality for streets and highways under its jurisdiction, the Ohio Director of Transportation may extend the traditional school zone boundaries. The distances in subsections (b)(1)C.1. to 3. hereof shall not exceed 300 feet per approach per direction and are bounded by whichever of the following distances or combinations thereof the Director approves as most appropriate:
1. The distance encompassed by projecting the school building lines normal to the fronting highway and extending a distance of 300 feet on each approach direction;
2. The distance encompassed by projecting the school property lines intersecting the fronting highway and extending a distance of 300 feet on each approach direction;
3. The distance encompassed by the special marking of the pavement for a principal school pupil crosswalk plus a distance of 300 feet on each approach direction of highway;
Nothing in this section shall be construed to invalidate the Director's initial action on August 9, 1976, establishing all school zones at the traditional school zone boundaries defined by projecting school property lines, except when those boundaries are extended as provided in subsections (b)(1)A. and C. hereof.
D. As used in this subsection, "crosswalk" has the meaning given that term in Section 301.09. The Director may, upon request by resolution of Council, and upon submission by the Municipality of such engineering, traffic and other information as the Director considers necessary, designate a school zone on any portion of a State route lying within the Municipality that includes a crosswalk customarily used by children going to or leaving a school during recess and opening and closing hours, whenever the distance, as measured in a straight line, from the school property line nearest the crosswalk to the nearest point of the crosswalk is no more than 1,320 feet. Such a school zone shall include the distance encompassed by the crosswalk and extending 300 feet on each approach direction of the State route;

 

[FlyingRon]

It is lower-case (b) (2).

You read it like this:

(b)It is prima-facie lawful, in the absence of a lower limit declared or established pursuant to Ohio R.C. 4511.21 by the Ohio Director of Transportation or Council, for the operator of a motor vehicle to operate the same at a speed not exceeding the following:
(2) Twenty-five miles per hour in all other portions of the Municipality, except on State routes outside business districts, through highways outside business districts and alleys;

If you go to the site, the indentation makes it easier to decipher which (2) goes with which other part.

 

[PayrollHRGuy]

I see it now. I originally looked at the site version and couldn't find it.

 

[Amusedmom]

Your ordinance citation is not correct. What were you cited for?

If something is prima-facie lawful, then it is legal. If something is prima-facie unlawful, then it is not legal.

Was sited for speeding. Any idea how to determine stopping distance for a car (if a car is traveling Xmph, how far would the car travel once brakes are immediately applied?)?

 

[Zigner]

Was sited for speeding. Any idea how to determine stopping distance for a car (if a car is traveling Xmph, how far would the car travel once brakes are immediately applied?)?

Stopping distance is irrelevant to a speeding citation. Furthermore, stopping distance tests are done under carefully controlled conditions. The chances that you could equal the published stopping distances are nil.

 

[FlyingRon]

I'm confused as to the cite anyhow. This section doesn't make anything unlawful. It says that things are prima facie lawful to do less than 25.
It doesn't make over 25 prima facie unlawful.

 

[Amusedmom]

Stopping distance is irrelevant to a speeding citation. Furthermore, stopping distance tests are done under carefully controlled conditions. The chances that you could equal the published stopping distances are nil.

Reason I asked is because where officer says I was speeding is less than 100ft. from a stop sign. If I was going as fast as the officer claims I was and at the spot he says he clocked me at, I really don't think I'd have had time to stop for that stop sign. I am going to the station to get some clarification on some things since I'm so confused.

 

[PayrollHRGuy]

There is a chart that you can see if you Google "Stopping time from 30 mph".

It shows multiple speeds but you can go from somewhere around 45 to 0 in 100 feet.

 

[Amusedmom]

If anyone is curious, I did go to the police station for clarification. The chief was confused like I was about the ticket. Turns out what was on the ticket is correct but there is a clerical error in their books. Their local code should have it listed as 333.03(B)(2) instead of 330.03(b)(2) in their books. I wasn't able to get a copy of the officer's notes unless what is listed under the "Narrative" section of the call record report is the info. I was told that I was West of a certain street which would have made the officer at the most approximately 1280 ft. away when he said he clocked me on radar. I thank all of you for helping me try to figure this out.

 

[FlyingRon]

But again, there's no way to violate 330.03(b)(2). That section says you are assumed not speeding if you are going less than 25. It doesn't say you are speeding if you are exceeding that. They'd need to charge you with the overall 330.03 which is your basic "too fast for the conditions" citation.

 

[Amusedmom]

But again, there's no way to violate 330.03(b)(2). That section says you are assumed not speeding if you are going less than 25. It doesn't say you are speeding if you are exceeding that. They'd need to charge you with the overall 330.03 which is your basic "too fast for the conditions" citation.

Flying Ron, would you be a little more specific? I'm not quite following.

330.03 (B)(2) reads:
(B)It is prima-facie lawful, in the absence of a lower limit declared or established pursuant to Ohio R.C. 4511.21 by the Ohio Director of Transportation or Council, for the operator of a motor vehicle to operate the same at a speed not exceeding the following:
(2) Twenty-five miles per hour in all other portions of the Municipality, except on State routes outside business districts, through highways outside business districts and alleys

Ohio Revised Code 4511.21: http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/4511.21

I interpret 330.03(B)(2) as: If you drive more than 25mph in an area that has a 25mph speed limit sign, you are exceeding the speed limit so you are breaking the law. If I'm wrong, please break it down for me. I get confused with the legal terms and such.

 

[FlyingRon]

You're wrong. It says you are "prima facie lawful" that means you are assumed legal if you drive 25 mph or slower.

It doesn't say anything about what happens if you exceed 25 mph. To violate something they have to show a violation of 330.03(a).

 

[Amusedmom]

That's making a little more sense. How should the violated code be listed on the ticket? 330.03(A), 330.03(A)(B)(2)?

So I would have to in a sense be reckless driving (having no regard to traffic, surface, and width of street and any other condition) in order to be charged? If I couldn't bring the car to a stop within the assured clear distance ahead of me (automobile/stop sign), then I'd be breaking part A? If that is correct, then if I did break part A, part B would be the specific law (exceeding 25mph) I broke?

What has me confused is that little section that reads "in the absence of a lower limit declared or established pursuant to Ohio R.C. 4511.21 by the Ohio Director of Transportation or Council". I take it that a posted speed limit sign means that a lower limit has been declared/established.

Further down in the code it states (and c should be C): (c) It is prima-facie unlawful for any person to exceed any of the speed limitations in subsection (b)(1)A. to (b)(6) hereof, or any declared or established pursuant to this section by the Director or local authorities and it is unlawful for any person to exceed any of the speed limitations in subsection (d) hereof. No person shall be convicted of more than one violation of this section for the same conduct, although violations of more than one provision of this section may be charged in the alternative in a single affidavit. This sounds like it is contradicting subsection B to me. Does anything past subsection B apply if officer says (B)(2)? If so, I have more questions....

E says: (e) In every charge of violation of this section the affidavit and warrant shall specify the time, place and speed at which the defendant is alleged to have driven, and in charges made in reliance upon subsection (c) hereof also the speed which subsections (b)(1)A. to (b)(6) hereof, or a limit declared or established pursuant to this section declares is prima-facie lawful at the time and place of such alleged violation, except that in affidavits where a person is alleged to have driven at a greater speed than will permit the person to bring the vehicle to a stop within the assured clear distance ahead the affidavit and warrant need not specify the speed at which the defendant is alleged to have driven. Is B2 part of "this section"?

J says: (j) (1) A violation of any provision of this section is one of the following: (then a list of different scenarios is listed, like number of violations within a year or if in school zone, and the type of misdemeanor) Is this what you meant by what happens if a person drives faster than posted speed limit?

I am sorry about all the questions. A have a slight learning disability so I don't always comprehend what I read. I also love to learn new things, like legal jargon. Appreciate your time explaining things.