CPS documentation

[AppreciateYourHelp]

What is the name of your state? Hawaii

Among other things (I have a question posted about the decree and claiming dependents) I am considering trying to get full physical and legal custody of our 12yo and 15yo children. In preparing for this I wanted to ask about something that seems like kind of a strange situation.

Last summer, during a therapy session a few months after she attempted suicide and spent time inpatient, our older daughter communicated some stuff to her therapist about her dad that caused the therapist to file a report with CPS. It was not regarding physical /sexual abuse per se, but a pattern of failure to respect boundaries, and failure to protect her from others who did not respect boundaries. The effect it had on our daughter very much concerned the therapist, as well as the unusual scenarios she described.

The CPS report resulted first in me being questioned, then the kids being questioned, and finally on another day, with the kids undergoing individual forensic interviews. As we left the interview location, the case worker mentioned that in addition to now moving to question him, she would be calling me to schedule a home visit at my place, just to wrap up the case. She told me after the interviews that they found that he stopped short of behavior that they would characterize as abuse, but they were very concerned about the boundary issues and the friend, and urged me not to allow overnights. I asked what if he asks directly? She basically suggested I make something up (the kid is sick, whatever) to delay him. She said if the kids requested, they could see him during the day.

My impression at this time was that more would be coming. A final report after the visit to my house. Something.

The next week, when my ex found out about the CPS case, he hit the wall, called each kid in turn (I was not in the room so I did not know), cornered the younger sibling when the older wouldn't answer, and demanded she answer questions. He accused me of calling CPS, texted our oldest some things that further concerned the therapist, told the kids he was going to be arrested, implied our daughter had ruined his life, etc. He hired a lawyer (he comes from wealth and his family seems to provide him with a lawyer at the drop of a hat). I called the detective directly at this point wondering what my ex was so afraid of, and he laughed, told me how many times my ex had called him, what a piece of work he was (his words). He told me that he reassured my ex over and over that he only was asking him to answer questions about the friend, and that he was free to decline.

I reached out to the CPS case worker to let her know about the inappropriate cornering of the kids, and to check in with her in general, as it had been a while and I had not heard anything about what was next. I was taken aback as the case worker who had been so lovely in prior interactions sounded extremely frustrated, barked something like "I'm not here to mediate between you two!" and that was that.

I have not heard a thing since. This was last July. No visit. No paperwork to show the source of the CPS report, the findings of the interviews, their recommendations, NOTHING.

My ex has not demanded overnights in the intervening months, actually not since our daughter's suicide attempt. Because of this I have been able to do both what the CPS case worker recommended and (I think) avoid violating court order - our visitation order is very vague. He was only seeing them during the day already at the time the CPS case arose.

Based on past experience, I am assuming he is going to have his own version of what happened here. He has a way of making him seem like the guy who is always just minding his business and being a great guy when someone suddenly victimizes him. Having gone through a trial with him, I am wanting to prepare for anything. What do I do about my lack of documentation? I have reached out again but heard nothing.

 

[stealth2]

What does your lawyer have to say? (at this point, I think you'd be wise to at least consult one. Before you do violate a court order. I, personally, would not take legal advice from a CPS case worker.)

 

[Ohiogal]

What is the name of your state? Hawaii

Among other things (I have a question posted about the decree and claiming dependents) I am considering trying to get full physical and legal custody of our 12yo and 15yo children. In preparing for this I wanted to ask about something that seems like kind of a strange situation.

Last summer, during a therapy session a few months after she attempted suicide and spent time inpatient, our older daughter communicated some stuff to her therapist about her dad that caused the therapist to file a report with CPS. It was not regarding physical /sexual abuse per se, but a pattern of failure to respect boundaries, and failure to protect her from others who did not respect boundaries. The effect it had on our daughter very much concerned the therapist, as well as the unusual scenarios she described.

The CPS report resulted first in me being questioned, then the kids being questioned, and finally on another day, with the kids undergoing individual forensic interviews. As we left the interview location, the case worker mentioned that in addition to now moving to question him, she would be calling me to schedule a home visit at my place, just to wrap up the case. She told me after the interviews that they found that he stopped short of behavior that they would characterize as abuse, but they were very concerned about the boundary issues and the friend, and urged me not to allow overnights. I asked what if he asks directly? She basically suggested I make something up (the kid is sick, whatever) to delay him. She said if the kids requested, they could see him during the day.

My impression at this time was that more would be coming. A final report after the visit to my house. Something.

The next week, when my ex found out about the CPS case, he hit the wall, called each kid in turn (I was not in the room so I did not know), cornered the younger sibling when the older wouldn't answer, and demanded she answer questions. He accused me of calling CPS, texted our oldest some things that further concerned the therapist, told the kids he was going to be arrested, implied our daughter had ruined his life, etc. He hired a lawyer (he comes from wealth and his family seems to provide him with a lawyer at the drop of a hat). I called the detective directly at this point wondering what my ex was so afraid of, and he laughed, told me how many times my ex had called him, what a piece of work he was (his words). He told me that he reassured my ex over and over that he only was asking him to answer questions about the friend, and that he was free to decline.

I reached out to the CPS case worker to let her know about the inappropriate cornering of the kids, and to check in with her in general, as it had been a while and I had not heard anything about what was next. I was taken aback as the case worker who had been so lovely in prior interactions sounded extremely frustrated, barked something like "I'm not here to mediate between you two!" and that was that.

I have not heard a thing since. This was last July. No visit. No paperwork to show the source of the CPS report, the findings of the interviews, their recommendations, NOTHING.

My ex has not demanded overnights in the intervening months, actually not since our daughter's suicide attempt. Because of this I have been able to do both what the CPS case worker recommended and (I think) avoid violating court order - our visitation order is very vague. He was only seeing them during the day already at the time the CPS case arose.

Based on past experience, I am assuming he is going to have his own version of what happened here. He has a way of making him seem like the guy who is always just minding his business and being a great guy when someone suddenly victimizes him. Having gone through a trial with him, I am wanting to prepare for anything. What do I do about my lack of documentation? I have reached out again but heard nothing.

If there is a court order YOU need to follow that. CPS has no legal authority to advise you to do anything.

 

[not2cleverRed]

If there is a court order YOU need to follow that. CPS has no legal authority to advise you to do anything.

I would add that OP only has her memory of what the CPS worker said, nothing in writing. This means that there is no physical record of CPS advising anything.

Absent a founded report, and written recommendations from CPS, the only thing OP has usable in court is "status quo". It would be reasonable to formalize a "vague" court order with something more specific, based on the status quo that has emerged.

Would also be reasonable to request therapeutic visitation, given the older child's suicide attempt, as such help might be in the best interest of the child? (I would assume that OP and the children are already getting help voluntarily.)

 

[AppreciateYourHelp]

I would add that OP only has her memory of what the CPS worker said, nothing in writing. This means that there is no physical record of CPS advising anything.

Absent a founded report, and written recommendations from CPS, the only thing OP has usable in court is "status quo". It would be reasonable to formalize a "vague" court order with something more specific, based on the status quo that has emerged.

Would also be reasonable to request therapeutic visitation, given the older child's suicide attempt, as such help might be in the best interest of the child? (I would assume that OP and the children are already getting help voluntarily.)

This (therapeutic visitation) was the kind of thing that I was hoping would emerge from the investigation, that never concluded. Some sort of directive or suggestions based on their findings. But I should say that when I asked her if she would like to do therapy sessions with her father, my eldest said she didn't think it would help because he is not a person who hears things or learns things. She is in weekly therapy and has also undergone a neuropsychological evaluation which resulted in some additional diagnoses and feedback which have given us great insight into her struggles. I also requested a evaluation via the school as well and she now has an IEP as well, as a lot of her anguish that led to the attempt had to do with academic frustrations, which she was largely internalizing. It has been a very positive year, ultimately, in terms of her growth, and I think having time to focus and process had a lot to do with this.

I totally understand about the court order and feel very vulnerable. I also want to protect my daughter's mental health, and both kids seem to be very happy with the current situation. This is why I want to re-establish the court order based on what is happening now.

I did pay a visit to a lawyer before the CPS thing really happened. At the time of the consult, all I knew at the time is that the therapist had called them, and I understood the nature of the concerns. I asked about what my options were as far as father refusing to pay half the medical bills as he is supposed to per in the decree. I have that in an angry email from him in which he blames me for her suicide attempt and says therefore it's all on me to pay.

I of course also asked about visitation and she said that he could go to court and require the younger to be with him half the time (decree simply said we were to move toward 50% visitation, did not say anything more concrete and he never requested anything more than it was at the time of divorce, which was 32%. I even directly asked him in writing and he said he was ok with it as-is.). But it's still there and he *could* do this. In reality I know he wouldn't force her, and definitely not without sister (she said the older would probably be given more say because of her mental health issues). The two kids are very close. The lawyer said I should document attempts to encourage visitation but not right now (at the time) because of CPS investigation. I decide to let the financial thing go, though it's a lot, because I didn't want to cause any further ripples at the time.

So that brings me to today, wondering how to proceed with all of this. The custody, the visitation, his failure to pay, and the tax stuff. I can't really afford a big legal battle and am considering going pro se, if I go.

 

[LdiJ]

This (therapeutic visitation) was the kind of thing that I was hoping would emerge from the investigation, that never concluded. Some sort of directive or suggestions based on their findings. But I should say that when I asked her if she would like to do therapy sessions with her father, my eldest said she didn't think it would help because he is not a person who hears things or learns things. She is in weekly therapy and has also undergone a neuropsychological evaluation which resulted in some additional diagnoses and feedback which have given us great insight into her struggles. I also requested a evaluation via the school as well and she now has an IEP as well, as a lot of her anguish that led to the attempt had to do with academic frustrations, which she was largely internalizing. It has been a very positive year, ultimately, in terms of her growth, and I think having time to focus and process had a lot to do with this.

I totally understand about the court order and feel very vulnerable. I also want to protect my daughter's mental health, and both kids seem to be very happy with the current situation. This is why I want to re-establish the court order based on what is happening now.

I did pay a visit to a lawyer before the CPS thing really happened. At the time of the consult, all I knew at the time is that the therapist had called them, and I understood the nature of the concerns. I asked about what my options were as far as father refusing to pay half the medical bills as he is supposed to per in the decree. I have that in an angry email from him in which he blames me for her suicide attempt and says therefore it's all on me to pay.

I of course also asked about visitation and she said that he could go to court and require the younger to be with him half the time (decree simply said we were to move toward 50% visitation, did not say anything more concrete and he never requested anything more than it was at the time of divorce, which was 32%. I even directly asked him in writing and he said he was ok with it as-is.). But it's still there and he *could* do this. In reality I know he wouldn't force her, and definitely not without sister (she said the older would probably be given more say because of her mental health issues). The two kids are very close. The lawyer said I should document attempts to encourage visitation but not right now (at the time) because of CPS investigation. I decide to let the financial thing go, though it's a lot, because I didn't want to cause any further ripples at the time.

So that brings me to today, wondering how to proceed with all of this. The custody, the visitation, his failure to pay, and the tax stuff. I can't really afford a big legal battle and am considering going pro se, if I go.

On your side, you have the argument that claiming one of the children does not benefit him under the current tax laws.
On your side, you have the status quo of him not taking any overnights.
On your side, you have his failure to pay medical bills.
On your side, you also could have the therapist testify (in person) regarding your elder daughter's issues.

On his side, his lawyer will claim that you are not forcing your children to abide by the custody arrangements. In fact, the attorney will likely try to prove that you are actively convincing the children not to see him.

If you have a good attorney, odds are that things will go mostly in your favor. Without an attorney you might get steamrolled by his attorney.

 

[AppreciateYourHelp]

On your side, you have the argument that claiming one of the children does not benefit him under the current tax laws.
On your side, you have the status quo of him not taking any overnights.
On your side, you have his failure to pay medical bills.
On your side, you also could have the therapist testify (in person) regarding your elder daughter's issues.

On his side, his lawyer will claim that you are not forcing your children to abide by the custody arrangements. In fact, the attorney will likely try to prove that you are actively convincing the children not to see him.

If you have a good attorney, odds are that things will go mostly in your favor. Without an attorney you might get steamrolled by his attorney.

I have to assume I am not supposed to know that he won't benefit from the child tax credit, because our mutual tax preparer informally told me. Not exactly something I can use without getting him in trouble, I assume. Is it not enough that he would outright purely profit from his kids if he got it? Isn't the point of it supposed to be to offset expenses incurred in raising children?

I still have not heard back from CPS, but emailed the therapist asking if she heard anything and in doing so created confirmation that she did file the report.

 

[stealth2]

but emailed the therapist asking if she heard anything and in doing so created confirmation that she did file the report.

Only if *she* confirmed to you that she filed the report. You could message me asking the same and it proves nothing.

 

[AlmostThere]

If you are really concerned about your child's well-being, then concentrate on her safety, and worry about the medical bills and tax implications later. You want to be sure that there is no way to imply your actions are about money before DD's well being.

 

[AppreciateYourHelp]

If you are really concerned about your child's well-being, then concentrate on her safety, and worry about the medical bills and tax implications later. You want to be sure that there is no way to imply your actions are about money before DD's well being.

I understand what you are saying about appearances. But concern for their well being is a constant. It's why I spent thousands trying to get full custody to begin with, years ago. The entire intervening decade have been about doing this crazy dance trying to adhere to what the judge ordered while trying to keep them safe and brought up with some semblance of normalcy. I had already decided to let things go financially over the summer regarding the medical bills. My desire to return to court at this point is about ALL of it. I would have more urgently been dealing with the custody/visitation if he were pressing the issue. But as it is, I feel this is a good arrangement for them and he is not currently making noises about changing it. The medical bills can wait, but the tax stuff is time sensitive, so that kind of pushed me over the edge to address ALL of it. You've got to understand, this is not a man you take to court lightly, so I would want to do it all at once. He has almost unlimited financial backing and becomes enraged and extremely defensive, and acts out when challenged, and that ultimately affects the kids. I'm talking barging in my house, mowing down arrangements such as child exchange, keeping kids home from school to irritate me, unloading on the kids. I've been going through old emails from combative times in the past and reliving how bad it gets, and am kind of to the point where I'm talking myself into being ok with it and just carrying on, hoping for the best, because they will sustain damage if I take any action.

 

[AppreciateYourHelp]

Only if *she* confirmed to you that she filed the report. You could message me asking the same and it proves nothing.

I think the email did that. I asked the therapist if she had heard anything about the inquiry and she said no, once she submits it she's out of the loop.

 

[stealth2]

I've been going through old emails from combative times in the past and reliving how bad it gets, and am kind of to the point where I'm talking myself into being ok with it and just carrying on, hoping for the best, because they will sustain damage if I take any action.

Honestly? All this does is provide him space in your head - rent-free (credit to the boys down the road). Yes, it's aggravating - infuriating, even - when they don't do what they should, either just because they should or because a court has ordered them to. But... more so, keeping your head in that place is ultimately harmful to you *and* to your kids. Too much stress. Would the extra $$ be of use? Sure. But it's not the end-all and be-all in life. And yes, your kids will come to understand that. At least, mine did. I found it better to let it go (except, IMO, CS), live life simply, and enjoy. It's not a contest, but your kids will see who was always there for them, in important ways. Trust me.

 

[commentator]

I believe that in order to go back to court and change the way things have been, you'd need a clear cut "precipitating incident." And the further you get from this sort of vague what happened, and the more it's all about how he's done all this bucket list of other things, barging into your house, changing the arrangements at short notice, etc. the less they sound important and worthy of a change in custody. You mention that you previously have spent thousands on trying to get custody before, that your ex has deep pockets and apparently enjoys the fight. You do not want to waste money going in with a list of "Okay, last year........" and a whole collection of grievances that put together mean lots of aggrivation but without a clear cut change in circumstances or behavior that has a chance of impressing the judge that a change is needed.

 

[AlmostThere]

I understand what you are saying about appearances. But concern for their well being is a constant. It's why I spent thousands trying to get full custody to begin with, years ago. The entire intervening decade have been about doing this crazy dance trying to adhere to what the judge ordered while trying to keep them safe and brought up with some semblance of normalcy. I had already decided to let things go financially over the summer regarding the medical bills. My desire to return to court at this point is about ALL of it. I would have more urgently been dealing with the custody/visitation if he were pressing the issue. But as it is, I feel this is a good arrangement for them and he is not currently making noises about changing it. The medical bills can wait, but the tax stuff is time sensitive, so that kind of pushed me over the edge to address ALL of it. You've got to understand, this is not a man you take to court lightly, so I would want to do it all at once. He has almost unlimited financial backing and becomes enraged and extremely defensive, and acts out when challenged, and that ultimately affects the kids. I'm talking barging in my house, mowing down arrangements such as child exchange, keeping kids home from school to irritate me, unloading on the kids. I've been going through old emails from combative times in the past and reliving how bad it gets, and am kind of to the point where I'm talking myself into being ok with it and just carrying on, hoping for the best, because they will sustain damage if I take any action.

I have been where you are - my ex has/had pretty much unlimited financial backing too. And he has threatened to litigate me into bankruptcy. Still my filter has been and continues to be BEST INTEREST OF THE CHILDREN. So, again, focus on the best interest of the children first. Keeping the kids out of school is a "best interest of the children issue". If he is unloading on the children -get them into counseling, immediately.

As far as your ex barging into your house, rifling through your mail, put an end to that today. Tell him he is unwelcome in your house and if he steps into it uninvited tell him to leave. Lock your door so he cannot get into it. Bring your mail into your house before child exchanges. You can control that. Unless your children are very young, let them out the door to meet their dad as he pulls up in his car.

When you say he is " mowing down arrangements such as child exchange" - are those arrangements laid out in your custody decree? If not, fall back on what is laid out in your decree and do not waiver from them. If your decree was not written well in terms of how to handle things as the kids age out of daycare, or as they enter after-school activities, then get it fixed once - and be prepared to follow that new decree to the letter.

Be very purposeful in how you chose to act. Stop giving him control. Only communicate about the children. Make all of your communications in writing (email or text) and be very transactional. If he calls, don't answer and get back to him by text. Use a calendaring program (i.e., Google calendar) to share any pertinent information such as school meetings, doctor's appointments, etc.

 

[AppreciateYourHelp]

I believe that in order to go back to court and change the way things have been, you'd need a clear cut "precipitating incident." And the further you get from this sort of vague what happened, and the more it's all about how he's done all this bucket list of other things, barging into your house, changing the arrangements at short notice, etc. the less they sound important and worthy of a change in custody. You mention that you previously have spent thousands on trying to get custody before, that your ex has deep pockets and apparently enjoys the fight. You do not want to waste money going in with a list of "Okay, last year........" and a whole collection of grievances that put together mean lots of aggrivation but without a clear cut change in circumstances or behavior that has a chance of impressing the judge that a change is needed.

To be clear, the things I described were what I was reliving from the past while reading those emails. The worst of it was during and right after the divorce. I mentioned those things because that is how he acts when he feels threatened, and reliving them are making me wonder whether it is worth it to go back to court for any reason.

If I did go in, I would be very clean and clear about what I am asking for and why. The precipitating incident would be all within the last year (parenting time decreased, refusal to pay, and also being sporadically MIA when trying to get him involved in educational decisions). Like, I texted repeatedly for over a week asking his input on a school, and when he finally responded it was all about him. Probably wouldn't help him that he's recently sent me a string of texts about how he can't keep times and dates straight, doesn't know what day it is, thinks he's losing it mentally.

But that aside, regarding the precipitating event, isn't the status quo is always relevant, and doesn't it by definition require an interval of new and stable normal?