Debtor spent the money for gold coins

[bcr229]

Don't get your hopes up about collecting a dime.

 

[robinsonf]

Appreciate all your inputs. I understood what I lost by delaying the matters. He has no house or any other real property on his name in Florida (I checked all counties and also he testified as such extending that answer to the entire US) except for a small home jointly with his wife and it was bought by them almost 15 years ago and it is their joint homestead. He has less than 100 dollars altogether in his bank account(s).

My last question is: just based on my suspicion, doubt, etc., is it possible to convince judge to let me search his home or any similar action involving physical search by sheriff or so? Would it be any different if I request the judge as such soon after the debtor withdrew cash or bought the gold coins? (this would help me decide my actions if he suddenly involved in such transactions in the future).

 

[quincy]

... My last question is: just based on my suspicion, doubt, etc., is it possible to convince judge to let me search his home or any similar action involving physical search by sheriff or so? Would it be any different if I request the judge as such soon after the debtor withdrew cash or bought the gold coins? (this would help me decide my actions if he suddenly involved in such transactions in the future).

No. A judge will not agree to let you search the fellow's home.

I recommend you turn over the debt to a collection agency. Either sell the debt to the agency or let the agency collect the debt on your behalf.

We all appreciate your appreciation for our efforts, so thank you.

Good luck.

 

[Taxing Matters]

My last question is: just based on my suspicion, doubt, etc., is it possible to convince judge to let me search his home or any similar action involving physical search by sheriff or so?

No, not just based on suspicion or doubt. If you had evidence that the debtor had assets within the home that you could attach to satisfy the judgment the court can authorize entry into the home (probably by the sheriff) to take those assets. But the court isn't going to authorize what amounts to a fishing expedition in the debtors home on the off chance that something attachable might be found.

 

[zddoodah]

is it possible to convince judge to let me search his home or any similar action involving physical search by sheriff or so?

No.

Would it be any different if I request the judge as such soon after the debtor withdrew cash or bought the gold coins?

No. The court is not going to authorize a general search. It's possible you could get an order for the sheriff to enter the home to seize something in particular, but you're not going to get one just to poke around.

 

[robinsonf]

Appreciate all your inputs. So, if the court does not allow a fishing expedition (or some thing similar) at debtor’s home then, during the debtor’s exam, the debtor says that he has only a table and a chair in his home although he has several “other items” (which were bought years ago) then it is impossible for me to prove that he has “other items” (such a TV, etc, which are in excess of the total price of all items he can keep) or to request the court to attach those “other items”. Is this correct?

 

[zddoodah]

What you can or can't prove isn't something we have any way of knowing.

 

[adjusterjack]

Appreciate all your inputs. So, if the court does not allow a fishing expedition (or some thing similar) at debtor’s home then, during the debtor’s exam, the debtor says that he has only a table and a chair in his home although he has several “other items” (which were bought years ago) then it is impossible for me to prove that he has “other items” (such a TV, etc, which are in excess of the total price of all items he can keep) or to request the court to attach those “other items”. Is this correct?

That's correct.

Besides, Florida exempts up to $1000 in personal property from attachment, up to $4000 if he doesn't own his own home. The statute is 222.25(4). Household goods are valued at yard sale prices (pennies on the dollar) for attachment purposes so you can pretty much give up any idea of getting any personal property.

Does he own a car. Florida exempts up to $1000 in equity, which is not a lot, unless he has a loan on it. The statute is 222.25(1). If he has a loan on it, it's probably worth less than the loan balance. Worth looking into. Though, if it's a cheap car it won't hardly make a dent in what he owes you.

A word about collection agencies. My own experience with potentially uncollectible judgments is that collection agencies don't pay anything for them but they'll take it on a commission basis. Unfortunately, after determining that the guy is a professional deadbeat they will probably put it aside and nothing will ever come of it.

 

[quincy]

... A word about collection agencies. My own experience with potentially uncollectible judgments is that collection agencies don't pay anything for them but they'll take it on a commission basis. Unfortunately, after determining that the guy is a professional deadbeat they will probably put it aside and nothing will ever come of it.

One of the members of FreeAdvice is a former debt collector who had, I believe, his own collection agency. Although @TigerD is now an attorney and essentially has left his debt collection days behind, perhaps he will visit this thread to provide some insight.

I know some agencies will only pay pennies on the dollar - but sometimes pennies are better than no money at all.

Again, though, the judgment is good for many years, if robinsonf wants to wait awhile longer. The debtor eventually, when he thinks robinsonf is not looking, may want to get a job, or buy a new car using cash, or open an account in a bank to stow a few gold coins. Then robinsonf can rush in.

 

[TigerD]

One of the members of FreeAdvice is a former debt collector who had, I believe, his own collection agency. Although @TigerD is now an attorney and essentially has left his debt collection days behind, perhaps he will visit this thread to provide some insight.

I know some agencies will only pay pennies on the dollar - but sometimes pennies are better than no money at all.

Again, though, the judgment is good for many years, if robinsonf wants to wait awhile longer. The debtor eventually, when he thinks robinsonf is not looking, may want to get a job, or buy a new car using cash, or open an account in a bank to stow a few gold coins. Then robinsonf can rush in.

Thanks for calling my attention to this thread Q.

OP: You need to hire a PI firm to do a good workup on this guy. You want to know property, assets, cars, toys, bank accounts, LLC membership, and more. Find out if the guy's dog is a registered breed. If so levy on it. Have the sheriff go take his dog from his crying kids to auction off. I did it once -- I got paid in full that day. The PI will have access to information you do not.

You can sell your judgment -- given the status of the case you can expect 2-3 cents on the dollar. You can hire an attorney - but there is significant risk of throwing good money after bad.

You didn't say if the court ordered interest. If so, sit on it for 3-4 years and let the guy get sloppy again. There are resources on judgment collection online. I can't - won't - post those here because most of them are selling something. But you will need to learn about how to find your guy, his stuff and get paid. Frankly, I dealt in judgment before I went to law school. And I can say quite honestly, that thought I knew what I was doing, but I had no clue. You will be responsible to learn court procedure and practices for yourself.

I would probably take a low profile for a few years and let the guy think he got away with it. Then hit him. You may never get paid, but keeping him looking over his shoulder for the next 10-20 years would be delicious.

TigerD

 

[robinsonf]

Many thanks to each of you!

TigerD: I will check if he has a dog. The court ordered interest around 4%. I will read stuff online on judgment collection and do my best to give him some hard time.

Appreciate all of you once again! Still the lingering question I have is: if he keeps items such as gold, TVs, cash, Fridge, etc. in his home and testify that he has nothing but a table and chair (probably a dog) in his home, is there any way/mechanism provided by the legal system to prove that he is telling false information which eventually help getting authorization from the court to authorize a sheriff to take those assets? Otherwise, tomorrow, e.g., he may but another TV (or another item which has no tag like a car) from his own bank account and empty the bank account and, day after tomorrow, say that the TV is broken therefore he has thrown into garbage therefore he longer has it.

 

[quincy]

Many thanks to each of you!

TigerD: I will check if he has a dog. The court ordered interest around 4%. I will read stuff online on judgment collection and do my best to give him some hard time.

Appreciate all of you once again! Still the lingering question I have is: if he keeps items such as gold, TVs, cash, Fridge, etc. in his home and testify that he has nothing but a table and chair (probably a dog) in his home, is there any way/mechanism provided by the legal system to prove that he is telling false information which eventually help getting authorization from the court to authorize a sheriff to take those assets? Otherwise, tomorrow, e.g., he may but another TV (or another item which has no tag like a car) from his own bank account and empty the bank account and, day after tomorrow, say that the TV is broken therefore he has thrown into garbage therefore he longer has it.

You need proof of assets. Suspicions are not enough.

I repeat what TigerD suggested: "You need to hire a PI firm ..."

 

[zddoodah]

if he keeps items such as gold, TVs, cash, Fridge, etc. in his home and testify that he has nothing but a table and chair (probably a dog) in his home, is there any way/mechanism provided by the legal system to prove that he is telling false information which eventually help getting authorization from the court to authorize a sheriff to take those assets?

I'm not sure what you're envisioning when you refer to a "way/mechanism provided by the legal system to prove that he is telling false information," but we've told you repeatedly that the only way you're going to get the court to make any sort of order that would be helpful to you is if you have evidence that the debtor is lying. Here's a hypothetical.

At a debtor exam, the debtor testifies that he has nothing more in his home than sparse furnishings, ordinary clothing, etc. But you suspect he's lying, and you go before the judge and say, "He's lying! You need to order X, Y and Z." You seem to think the court should just blindly accept your allegation that the guy is lying, but that's not going to happen. The court is going to respond, "Oh, is he? What evidence do you have that he's lying?" If you're response to that is, "Well...I don't have any evidence, but if you let me enter his home, I'll get the evidence." Think about how ridiculous that sounds.

Now...if your debtor leaves his front blinds open, and you can take photographs of the inside of the house from the public sidewalk or street, then you could put those photographs into evidence. Likewise, if he hires a plumber and you can get the plumber to testify about what he saw in the house (unlikely, but not impossible), then that testimony is evidence.

But the bottom line is that, in a battle of a lying judgment debtor and a suspicious judgment creditor with no evidence, the debtor will win.

 

[adjusterjack]

Still the lingering question I have is

You keep asking the same question over and over again and getting the same answer. No, the "legal system" will do nothing for you until you can show that he has such and such, not that you think he has such and such.

Besides, it doesn't matter much what he has inside the house as much of it will be exempt from attachment, as I have previously pointed out.

By the way, even if you could attach something of value, you don't get to do it, a sheriff does it, then stores the items and arranges for an auction. While that's happening you pay the sheriff's fees, the storage fees, and the auctioneer's commission. You're not going to recover much money on ordinary household goods.

Forget about a dog. Pets are valued like any other personal property and could certainly be within the exemption amount.

One thing you can do fairly quickly is hire a PI to follow him, find out if he has a job and get his employment information, then file for wage garnishment. Or go after the guy's car, if there is any equity there.

Otherwise, this:

But the bottom line is that, in a battle of a lying judgment debtor and a suspicious judgment creditor with no evidence, the debtor will win.

Also keep in mind that the guy can file for bankruptcy and, if successful, your judgment disappears forever.

 

[robinsonf]

I really appreciate the details and examples you have provided and they clarified all my doubts, much appreciated.