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Do I Have to Sign Passport Documents for Child

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troutette

Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? FL

My ex recently was awarded joint custody. He is an Irish citizen, which automatically makes my daughter a dual-citizen.

The court approved his parenting plan and in the section that addresses international travel, the box is not checked, or is the blank space filled in that indicates how many days notice needs to be given to other parent. There is also no mention of passports in the Final Judgment.

He sent me passport papers to complete, with no indication of where he was traveling or dates. He later provided me, at his attorney's request, with country (states primarily Ireland) and now his attorney wants to file an emergency hearing this week if I don't produce signed documents.

I was able to secure an attorney and we asked that since the Final Judgment is unclear about any international travel, that he sign and get the court to order a stipulation stating:

1. He will not seek to get her an Irish passport
2. That he will not seek any custody initiatives anywhere else
3. He follows the law of the Hague Convention
4. His travel is limited to Ireland and England
5. He is responsible for all expenses regarding international travel
6. I will have contact twice with child during trip (She is 6 years old)

They refused the above but offered a Stipulation that would say he would follow the law under the Hague Convention. That's it.

I am yet to hear from my attorney on what his proposed response will be.

My concern is he does have strong ties to Ireland (his entire family, including three other children live there). And, if I have requested the above, he doesn't agree to it, but I sign off that I agree to his stipulation, that I could be setting myself up for future trouble. If he does issue her an Irish passport, what are my legal disadvantages?

My retainer is about to dry up, possibly before this even gets to court, and I would like to know if I should stay steady on my requests or is his sufficient? I may have to go ProSe at court.

I have a friend who is going through hell with a similiar situation and don't want someone to tell me down the line "You shouldn't have agreed to his stipulation ..."

Any immediate assistance would be greatly appreciated.

I do plan on asking the court for clarification on several items on the final judgment as it contradicts itself on several issues. Obviously his attorney prepared the final recommendations and findings and I was ProSe at the time.

My daughter is presently in 3rd level of intervention at school for behaviorial/emotional problems. She has threatened to kill herself and school had me bring her immediately for a psych eval that day. He has been given all this information, her Conner Scale ratings are off the chart for ADHD and ODD and yet he is objecting to therapy, a homework assistance program, a mentoring program, Big Brothers/Big Sisters. Even with the pediatrician referring her for a psych eval, he is dragging his feet and now months have gone by as my daughter continues to escalate in the school intervention process.

My feeling is that this is much more of a concern than a summer vacation.

That's my next legal battle with him.

Any immediate advise would be greatly appreciated.
 


Isis1

Senior Member
The court can order that you sign. The court can also order him to submit his itinerary to you.
 

CSO286

Senior Member
Even if it is not addressed in the Final Judgment? Do I not have legitimate concerns?
That is what a modificaiton is about. Addressing new issues or things that were not clarified in the first order.

Legitimate concerns or not, the other parent still has a right to be asble to travel with the child, unless prohibited by the court.

You can ask for all the conditions on international travel you would like (and there are several I would ask for), but at the end of the day, it is still up to Judge to decide whether or not to order them.
 

CJane

Senior Member
It's unlikely that the court would order that he only travel to Ireland/England with the child. It's far MORE likely that the court would order that Dad only travel to countries that are signatories to the Hague Convention.

It is unlikely that the court would order Dad not to seek an Irish passport. Child is a dual citizen, and you had a hand in deciding that.

Your concerns about the child's behavior sound legitimate, but they do not tie in with the vacation.

If it were me? I would be FAR more interested in paying an attorney to assist me in seeking therapy/help for my child than blocking a vacation.
 

troutette

Member
It is unlikely that the court would order Dad not to seek an Irish passport. Child is a dual citizen, and you had a hand in deciding that.
As I am not an attorney, I am trying to get some insight as to why he would want to obtain an Irish passport for her. What does he/she gain from having it? She is only 6. Why is it so crucial, that he won't agree? My attorney is asking for this stipulation just for this year's vacation, as the FJ does not indicate it is allowed. We will later be requesting clarification and modification of areas gone unaddressed or are contradictive in this FJ.

Out of State travel box is clearly checked with the parent required to provide other parent 30-days notice.

The very next box down is "Out of Country" -- that box is not checked and there is no number filled in as to how many days notice required to give.
Also, the section that addresses the issuance of a passport is left blank.

After, we will be trying to get some type of motion/action for Clarification of the Final Judgment, as it contradicts itself in so many places. I never heard from my prior attorney after our hearing last June when this modified parenting plan was ordered. It was the father's parenting plan that was ordered, not mine. So, many of my questions were never answered by my prior attorney.


One page says "mother is 100% responsible for something, on another page, it states the father is" and on and on and on.

I just don't want to agree to something now, and later be told by an attorney that I should have addressed a,b,c, etc. when addressing this international travel.
 

stealth2

Under the Radar Member
Ireland is a member of the EU, I believe. It is much easier to travel within Europe with an EU member passport than a US one.
 

CJane

Senior Member
As I am not an attorney, I am trying to get some insight as to why he would want to obtain an Irish passport for her. What does he/she gain from having it? She is only 6. Why is it so crucial, that he won't agree?
Why is it so crucial to YOU that the child only have a US Passport, that YOU won't agree? What do YOU perceive the gain is if the child has a US Passport vs an Irish one?

Though it's possible that he could get an Irish Passport without your permission. Which might be the route he chooses if you continue to try and prevent him from traveling freely with HIS child.

Out of State travel box is clearly checked with the parent required to provide other parent 30-days notice.


That's a ridiculous restriction.
 

troutette

Member
Why is it so crucial to YOU that the child only have a US Passport, that YOU won't agree? What do YOU perceive the gain is if the child has a US Passport vs an Irish one?

Though it's possible that he could get an Irish Passport without your permission. Which might be the route he chooses if you continue to try and prevent him from traveling freely with HIS child.



That's a ridiculous restriction.
I don't know how crucial it is to me, as I stated I am not an attorney. My fear is exactly what you stated ... it is possible that he could obtain an Irish passport without my permission and then seek custody of her outside the U.S.

Regarding the out of state travel, well, you'd have to address it with him ... it was his proposed parenting plan. So, when he puts "ridiculous" restrictions in his parenting plan for out of state travel, yes, it sends a red flag to me when he requests out of country travel when it is not even checked in his parenting plan.

I am not trying to prevent him from having a vacation with HIS child. Clearly, cooperation and communication are severely hindered in this situation and all I want to do is ensure that my daughter is returned home and that we both adhere to the final judment.
 

Proserpina

Senior Member
I don't know how crucial it is to me, as I stated I am not an attorney. My fear is exactly what you stated ... it is possible that he could obtain an Irish passport without my permission and then seek custody of her outside the U.S.

Regarding the out of state travel, well, you'd have to address it with him ... it was his proposed parenting plan. So, when he puts "ridiculous" restrictions in his parenting plan for out of state travel, yes, it sends a red flag to me when he requests out of country travel when it is not even checked in his parenting plan.

I am not trying to prevent him from having a vacation with HIS child. Clearly, cooperation and communication are severely hindered in this situation and all I want to do is ensure that my daughter is returned home and that we both adhere to the final judment.


If his mind is set on it, he could file for custody regardless - he doesn't need an Irish passport for the child to do that.

He has proof that he's the legal father - that's all he needs.

Not that I'm seeing an actual threat of that happening, but it was worth clarifying.
 
I don't know how crucial it is to me, as I stated I am not an attorney. My fear is exactly what you stated ... it is possible that he could obtain an Irish passport without my permission and then seek custody of her outside the U.S.

Regarding the out of state travel, well, you'd have to address it with him ... it was his proposed parenting plan. So, when he puts "ridiculous" restrictions in his parenting plan for out of state travel, yes, it sends a red flag to me when he requests out of country travel when it is not even checked in his parenting plan.

I am not trying to prevent him from having a vacation with HIS child. Clearly, cooperation and communication are severely hindered in this situation and all I want to do is ensure that my daughter is returned home and that we both adhere to the final judment.
The only reason I would see for her not to have an Irish passport would be that Dad could possibly travel with the child, without Mom's permission. On a US passport, the traveling parent is supposed to have a letter from the home parent saying the parent can travel with the child. Of course, a friend of mine has two children with Portugese and American citizenship. She leaves the country with the children all the time on American passports and they have never asked her for a permission letter to travel. And for all Mom knows Dad already has an Irish passport for the child. I doubt an American passport is required for her to get an Irish passport.

Mom: If Dad wants to take the child and file for something in Ireland, he is going to do so whether there are restrictions in the custody papers or not. IF that were his intention, no wording is going to stop him. I had to come to that realization with my ex threatening to take the baby to Canada and not bring him back. You can't spend all your time worrying about the "what ifs!" You will worry yourself into an early grave!

As long as he is agreeing to travel only to Hague countries and he is providing you with an itinerary of destination, dates, etc then that is about as good as I would guess you are going to get.
 

TinkerBelleLuvr

Senior Member
See post #17 for my verbiage concerning international travel:

https://forum.freeadvice.com/child-custody-visitation-37/need-rational-emotionless-opinions-passport-issue-543508-p2.html

That might help ... info goes both ways.

You may also want to stipulate the means and times of communication when child is on vacation with the other parent.
 

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