Do the kids really have to go ??

[SISSY245]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? New York
My daughter recently obtained her divorce, however they had shared custody of their 2 boys, ages 6 & 8, until this past Wednesday, when temporary custody was given to her, and every other w/e to the father, beginning yesterday. This was a terribly abusive relationship--please keep this in mind, as I tell this. 6 weeks ago while the boys were with him, he kicked them out of the house--yes out of the house in the dark because he was drinking. They snuck back in and called my daughter and she arrived with the police and picked them up and made out a report--and no, unfortunately she did not press charges--abused woman--and of course him calling her and threatening to break into her house, kill her and take the boys, well need I say more?? And yes my husband and I begged her--even took her back to the police--not happening. Anyway, the result was this custody order. When the boys were told, it was just heartbreaking, they cried, threw up, refused to eat, refused to go to school, could not sleep and so on. Next day--to the school psychologist. She had enough evidence to suggest parental abuse, and called Child Protective Services. The boys were interviewed that evening, and the case worker told us that while he couldn't tell her to go against a judges order,if it were his kids, he would not force them to go. Next morning--Friday--to the Pediatrician. Again, she had enough to call CPS. So we -- my daughter and myself-- took them to their classes and sat with the Psychologist, the Principal, and the Officer assigned to the school. The town police dept is well aware of the father's background, and have always had problems with this family, so it was determined that a squad car would be there to back up the school officer, and all of them told us that they would absolutely protect the boys and absolutely would not force them to go. Great right ?? Not so. About an hour before school let out, the Nurse called and said that the boys were so upset, and crying that they just couldn't function, and could my daughter pick them up. So of course she calls her lawyer for advice. He told her (and I quote ) "I don't care if you have to tie them up and throw them in his car, but you cannot violate the judges order or you will be arrested and go to jail" She brought him up to date with what had gone on over the past few days, and his response was that everyone calls CPS, it's no big deal, you're hysterical, tell the boys to get over it, I get 5 calls a week like this--and I took over the phone call because she was trying to tell him that the boys were really terrified to go with their father, while she was crying, and he told me the same thing. "If you want your daughter to get arrested, then go ahead and ignore the judgement, and don't bother me with this nonsense" Well, I called the NYS police and they informed me that no police officer would ever force a child to go if they didn't want to. This was reinforced by the school officer. Needless to say, he ended up picking them up at my daughters house, and after some coaxing the little guy went, the older one, absolutely not, would not budge. She called the town police and they came over and talked to him and he said no, he did not want to go with his father, and the officer relayed the message. So this brings me to my questions. Was my daughter really supposed to force them to go as her lawyer said ( tie them up and such ), and do I have grounds to report this lawyer, and to whom ?? And yes--she is looking for a new lawyer. Thanxs

 

[Rushia]

While the term was a little exaggerated, yes, she must force them to go as the order states. If her ex takes this to court she could be held in contempt which includes (possibly) jail time and fines.

If she has the proper evidence she SHOULD have filed an exparte or gone back to court.

 

[WittyUserName]

Here's the thing; a court order is not a suggestion. Ignoring one can absolutely get even the most well-meaning parent slapped down in court. Taking a case worker's advice over that of an actual lawyer? No offense, but the case worker has no expertise in terms of the law and what happens there. Also, caseworkers are not the ones at risk of losing custody by withholding visitations. Neither are the cops or teachers.

There will be more info coming from the more senior members here, but here are some things that have cropped up for me:

1) Mom should likely be posting here. It's hard to get actual details from third parties - such as the custody thing. Does Mom have sole physical custody as of last Weds.?

2) Did Mom prove to the judge that there were substantiated cases of abuse? And did she ask for supervised visitation? Because if what she is looking for is complete removal of his visitation rights, I question whether that's realistic.

More info is needed....can we get Mom on the line?

 

[Rushia]

Here's the thing; a court order is not a suggestion. Ignoring one can absolutely get even the most well-meaning parent slapped down in court. Taking a case worker's advice over that of an actual lawyer? No offense, but the case worker has no expertise in terms of the law and what happens there. Also, caseworkers are not the ones at risk of losing custody by withholding visitations. Neither are the cops or teachers.

There will be more info coming from the more senior members here, but here are some things that have cropped up for me:

1) Mom should likely be posting here. It's hard to get actual details from third parties - such as the custody thing. Does Mom have sole physical custody as of last Weds.?

2) Did Mom prove to the judge that there were substantiated cases of abuse? And did she ask for supervised visitation? Because if what she is looking for is complete removal of his visitation rights, I question whether that's realistic.

More info is needed....can we get Mom on the line?

I'm thinking that MOM should have gone to court 6 weeks ago when dad threw an 8 and 6 year old out of the house. The courts aren't going to look to kindly upon Mom either for not acting upon this sooner.

 

[WittyUserName]

I'm thinking that MOM should have gone to court 6 weeks ago when dad threw an 8 and 6 year old out of the house. The courts aren't going to look to kindly upon Mom either for not acting upon this sooner.

That's why I'm wondering if the judge did know and that's why Mom ended up with the new order. If the order was only changed last week how likely is it that Mom's going to be able to get another hearing?

 

[stealth2]

Frankly, your daughter needs a smack upside the head for not wanting to press charges and not immediately filing for emergency orders. And YOU should be smacked upside the other side of the head for not immediately speaking with an attorney and finilng to have both your daughter and the kids' father found unfit. Your grandchildren are being abused by BOTH of their parents. One directly, and the other by being a stupid bint and not doing anything about it.

 

[BL]

The problem is that when Dad kicked the young children out of the house , it should have been dealt with then .

Police called , CPS involved .

It was NOT .

We only have one side to the story , no proof .

Only hearsay .

An order is an order , follow it .

 

[Rushia]

That's why I'm wondering if the judge did know and that's why Mom ended up with the new order. If the order was only changed last week how likely is it that Mom's going to be able to get another hearing?

I agree, but with the proper proof, I can't imagine that he would have gotten unsupervised visitation. Kicking an 8 and 6 year old out of the house while drinking is pretty serious.

Frankly, your daughter needs a smack upside the head for not wanting to press charges and not immediately filing for emergency orders. And YOU should be smacked upside the other side of the head for not immediately speaking with an attorney and finilng to have both your daughter and the kids' father found unfit. Your grandchildren are being abused by BOTH of their parents. One directly, and the other by being a stupid bint and not doing anything about it.

Ugh, I absolutely agree. You said it better than I did or could.

 

[SISSY245]

Do the kids really have to go

Thank you all for your replies. To answer your questions--Yes she has sole physical temporary custody. And I certainly agree she should have followed through with the endangerment issue. The judge was aware of the situation--my daughter had a restaining order for a year which expired in May. She went before the judge a week before this hearring to obtain another one, but was denied for inadequate documentation--and of course I would agree with the judge. She was sent to a domestic violence advocate ( suggested by the judge ) to help her and inform her on how to document properly. She went back before the judge later that afternoon with the new documentation, and the advocate, and the judge told her that this would be addressed at the custody hearring. The court order does state that this is a supervised visitation because he lives with his mother and she would provide supervision. And of course my husband and I have discussed obtaining our own lawyer, and we do have an appt. with one this week. I was there yesterday and the little one called his brother and told him everything was fine and to please come over--then dad got on the phone ( I was listening on an extention ) and promptly told him--you little f---ing ba---rd. I waited a month to see you and I will not put up with your s--it, and hung up on him, leaving him in tears. Would you want to go there ?? Can you imagine having to force your child to go there?? And yes I know--she messed up, and it's an order, but this just really isn't fair to those kids. And I certainly see it's way passed the time for my husband and I to get into this, and we intend to, so hold the head smacking. And yes, I put a digital recorder on the phone. I'm going there today and "forcing" the older one to spend the day with the father in hopes it might shed a little bit of favor in my daughters corner, and satisfy the dad. And you're right, they are both abusing those boys in different ways, and I think I have to get involved if only to provide a secure place for them in case the judge decides foster care is an option. I think the maternal grandparents -- myself and husband-- are next in line after the parents. I will definitely try to get her online with you--I think it would definitely help and encourage her. Again, thank you for your replies and I look foreward to any and all suggestions.

 

[stealth2]

And yes, I put a digital recorder on the phone.

IF this is even legal (and note that it probably is not - you aren't permitted to record third party conversations, i.e. between Dad and his child), it will probably not be admissible in court. Nor should you be listening in on phone calls. That would be a very quick way for a judge to decide that you and your husband would not be a suitable placement.

The boys should be in counseling - a licensed therapist would be able to testify as to the issues the boys are facing.

And his parents would have the same standing as you.

 

[SISSY245]

Point taken. How would anyone prove what he says to the boys if recording is not permissable?? They are in counseling, unfortunately it's taken weeks to get an appt., the first will be this coming week, and the MD rushed that. Although they have been seeing the school psychologist. Which brings another issue up. ( please keep in mind that I have gone with her to every appt. for the last 6 weeks when all of this really exploded ) There is another child living in the house. The father's sister has a 11 year old boy and both of them reside there also. Since talking with the school psychologist other issues have come to light in the last 2 weeks that we were not aware of, and really just in the past few days. It seems the closer to the visitation, the more came out. We found out--and this is just what the boys are saying, nothing has been confirmed yet--the 11 year old showed them the family cat that he killed--I truly am not making this up--and threatened to hurt them if they told, the little one told her that this boy choked him, punched him, kicked him, and again threatened to hurt him if he talked. When she asked them if they told anyone they told her they were really scared, and said their grandmother never believes anything they say.The Md told us that she suspects sexual molestation by this 11 year old to the 8year old, hence the call to CPS (this was just on Friday--the same day this visitation started ) Of course everything takes time and obviously these are serious accusations and they must be confirmed. I understand that, however, again, as a mother and a grandmother, I would go to jail before letting them go there until this was all settled. BUT, it seems right now there isn't anything I can do except keep pushing and as you said, retain my own lawyer.

 

[Ohiogal]

Point taken. How would anyone prove what he says to the boys if recording is not permissable??

Get a warrant to permit you to record third party calls. Oh yeah. You can't. You are not able to do so. You have broken several laws as has your daughter. Apple doesn't fall from the tree.

They are in counseling, unfortunately it's taken weeks to get an appt., the first will be this coming week, and the MD rushed that. Although they have been seeing the school psychologist. Which brings another issue up. ( please keep in mind that I have gone with her to every appt. for the last 6 weeks when all of this really exploded )

So you are totally overinvolved and overstepping as well as inserting yourself and your own agenda into this situation. Did you also sit in on every school psychologist appointment?

There is another child living in the house. The father's sister has a 11 year old boy and both of them reside there also. Since talking with the school psychologist other issues have come to light in the last 2 weeks that we were not aware of, and really just in the past few days. It seems the closer to the visitation, the more came out. We found out--and this is just what the boys are saying, nothing has been confirmed yet--the 11 year old showed them the family cat that he killed--I truly am not making this up--and threatened to hurt them if they told, the little one told her that this boy choked him, punched him, kicked him, and again threatened to hurt him if he talked.

Prove that ANY of this happened and that your grandson is not telling stories.

When she asked them if they told anyone they told her they were really scared, and said their grandmother never believes anything they say.The Md told us that she suspects sexual molestation by this 11 year old to the 8year old, hence the call to CPS (this was just on Friday--the same day this visitation started )

Is father aware of the sexual molestation? Is the aunt aware her child may have done this? If not then that reflects ON YOU AND YOUR DAUGHTER for not also addressing the issue with the parent of that child and your daughter's STBX.

Of course everything takes time and obviously these are serious accusations and they must be confirmed. I understand that, however, again, as a mother and a grandmother, I would go to jail before letting them go there until this was all settled.

You don't understand ANYTHING about the law at all. If you were really concerned about your grandchildren you would educate your daughter in how to protect them -- but you don't know how. You dont understand the logic issue. Apparently your daughter has no evidence of anything and you are too hell bent on breaking laws to actually do anything within the law. This seems extremely vindictive against dad and NOT about protecting the children.

And before you say it is about the children, tell me this, what did dad say when mom approached him with the information about the 11 year old possibly sexually molesting the 8 year old? What did your daughter do regarding taking the 8 year old IMMEDIATELY to the ER to get the 8 year old physically examined? The ER did confirm that penetration took place, correct? Or, actually your daughter didn't take her possibly sexually abused CHILD to the ER because CSB is involved, right? And until then nothing else needs done. Is there any physical evidence/ Was a rape kit done? Was the child questioned by a police officer after mom reported this to the police? Should I continue?

Answer those questions. NOW.

BUT, it seems right now there isn't anything I can do except keep pushing and as you said, retain my own lawyer.

Did you ensure a conversation with dad took place to protect the 8 year old from the 11 year old? Is dad on notice about that. Did you force the issue of the child going to the ER which means the child went? Or not? If not you are just as neglectful and even more so because you see things wrong here. We won't even repeat the illegality of the conversation tapings. Did you even report the alleged sexual abuse to the police?

 

[SISSY245]

Thank you for your honest opinions. I live 2 hours away from them, and up until these last few weeks, she didn't say anything. Up until these last few weeks, I always thought he was a good father--abusive too her, but as far as I could tell, never to the boys, and they never said anything to anyone until recently. Is my daughter an idiot--of course she is. I'm not trying to overinsert myself or break laws, I just feel overwhelmed and embarassed that this was going on and I was not aware--until recently. And certainly I didn't sit in the counseling session--we were told afterwards. The molestation--if it did indeed take place happened last summer--again I'll state now as I did before--this all has to be proven--I understand that. And the 11 year old has been seeing a psychiatrist since he was 5. The MD said the same thing--this is heresay, and very well could be lies--I get that. And I'm sure you're aware that there are different ways of molestation--not necessarily involving penetration. If she thought he should go to the ER, she would have sent us, and called the police. She examined him thoroughly. I'm sure as a seasoned Pediatrician, she knows what to do. I'm involved at this point because my daughter obviously isn't doing anything much less the right thing. And of course I don't know the laws--that's why I'm here. I don't want to break any laws, I just want to do the right thing for my grandchildren. I'll have her remove the recorder. And the father is aware of the problems with the 11 year old--the child has been living there since he's been born. As far as the accusations, I don't know--it's not my place to tell him. And right now, it probably wouldn't fly well--which is understandable. I hope I've answerd your questions. I'm not trying to lay blame only on him--they both should be as you said--smacked in the head. I just want to do the right thing for the boys, and be prepared with the right legal advice.