Does an overnight count if only one child (of two)?

[killerzoey]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? HI

My STBX has the kids separately on his overnights to a large degree. Sometimes he'll plan to have both but ask to only have the older if he has a cold or something. We have shared custody and a rather nebulous visitation order at the moment. The judge gave him "two, max. of three" overnights per week. That's our latest order.

But because one child was only a year old and was breastfeeding, STBX agreed to have her only one night a week at first, and we are adding a second every other week. Our older child has two a week, and a third every other week. In adding the second overnight for our youngest, he wanted to make that a different night from our oldest's additional overnight. I guess it really is hard for him to care for both.

I am just wondering in general, in counting overnights, does it count if he has only one child? Or would you count that as 1/2 an overnight since we have two children? The way I figure it if he has (for example) one child once a week and the other three times a week, he has two overnights a week if simply calculating percentage. But how does the court look at this?

I intend to try to keep the overnights the same night in the future as much as possible. But if he says he can't handle one of them (the youngest) I am not inclined to send her. Our kids are 4.5 and 1.5. I'm thinking he will be able to handle both better as the younger gets older. I hope.

Thanks, and I would have tacked this on an existing thread but mine are all getting buried and not related to this question and not really getting additional responses.

 

[Ohiogal]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? HI

My STBX has the kids separately on his overnights to a large degree. Sometimes he'll plan to have both but ask to only have the older if he has a cold or something. We have shared custody and a rather nebulous visitation order at the moment. The judge gave him "two, max. of three" overnights per week. That's our latest order.

He has three overnights a week.

But because one child was only a year old and was breastfeeding, STBX agreed to have her only one night a week at first, and we are adding a second every other week.

Whose suggestion was that? Because you don't get to penalize him or use it against him that he was working with you. A year old and breastfeeding? There was absolutely NO REASON why that child should not have been going to see her father as much as the older child.

Our older child has two a week, and a third every other week. In adding the second overnight for our youngest, he wanted to make that a different night from our oldest's additional overnight. I guess it really is hard for him to care for both.

Or maybe he just wanted one on one time with EACH child.

I am just wondering in general, in counting overnights, does it count if he has only one child? Or would you count that as 1/2 an overnight since we have two children? The way I figure it if he has (for example) one child once a week and the other three times a week, he has two overnights a week if simply calculating percentage. But how does the court look at this?

Why does it matter? Oh this goes to child support, doesn't it?

I intend to try to keep the overnights the same night in the future as much as possible. But if he says he can't handle one of them (the youngest) I am not inclined to send her. Our kids are 4.5 and 1.5. I'm thinking he will be able to handle both better as the younger gets older. I hope.

Yet you have no idea why he doesn't want both children all the time do you? You are guessing Zoey. You seem to be looking for excuses that will reflect poorly on dad.

Thanks, and I would have tacked this on an existing thread but mine are all getting buried and not related to this question and not really getting additional responses.

Seriously, quit worrying about the petty stuff. And this is petty quite frankly. You seem to be fishing for reasons to get more child support or be able to take the children to the mainland.

 

[killerzoey]

Ohiogal, you are very, very far off.

I am NOT looking for anything. I am curious. That is IT.

I SERIOUSLY don't think you are listening objectively. You are criticizing me for asking a question. You are implying that I deprived him of the breastfeeding child.

HE is the one backing away from the little one. HE is the one. I am fully cooperating with the order and letting him work up to this as he feels comfortable.

To clearly answer your question about the little one, HE did not want to have the little one three nights a week abruptly. And why is that so wrong? For heaven's sake she is a breastfeeding infant/toddler who is used to nursing back to sleep at night right by my side. On WHAT PLANET is the fact that we both agreed that a gradual introduction to overnights would be best in this situation a BAD thing? Isn't that what is supposed to happen? Or would it have been better for us to drag it back to court? There was never any conflict or difference of opinion between him and me on this. Also, come to think of it, he originally just wanted overnights with our oldest. He said this after the first overnight with both, that "I was just thinking this would be with X for a while until Y gets older".

Seriously. I bet I'm not the only one who wishes you'd just occasionally drop the "what is someone really asking" thing sometimes and just answer the question without all the insults thrown in.

And where do you get that I am penalizing him for not using all of his overnights? I mean seriously, where IS that in my post? You are 100% wrong here. We are working up to a more consistent arrangement but it is HE who backs out of overnights. Completely unprompted by me.

Regarding your comment maybe he just wants one on one time... Where do YOU get that information? How are YOU so sure? Speculation! Who cares either way! I think of the two of us I am in a better position to speculate and where I get my information is directly from the words he uses to split the visits, such as "I have a cold and I don't think I could handle X could I just have Y today". How am I this awful person for stating this as the probable reason when it's the one he gives? I tend to think it's best for siblings to be together and would personally like to make that a eventual goal, but I am certainly not panicked about it.

Again, this was just a question on how the overnight rate would be counted. I do not have ANY plans to need to know this info for (a) moving (b) child support or (c) anything else you obviously deem so ridiculous.

I am new at this divorced parenting thing. Sometimes a question is just a question.

 

[stealth2]

I happen to agree with OG.

If you're not planning on using the information on how overnights are calculated, why does it matter? Be glad he's involved.

 

[killerzoey]

I happen to agree with OG.

If you're not planning on using the information on how overnights are calculated, why does it matter? Be glad he's involved.

For heaven's sake. I AM glad he's involved. I really am. This question sort of bubbled out of my subconscious in a general sense. I thought I wonder if when it comes tax time we will both think we have the kids 200 days a year. THAT sort of general "huh" thing. Sheesh.

 

[Ohiogal]

Reading your HISTORY gives a lot. Hey but you think what you want to think. I was asking questions and attempting to answer yours. You were speculating left, right and center, and I offered other reasons why he might be doing what he is doing. Then you got defensive. Says a lot about you.

 

[Newlydivmomto4]

So it does come down to money. What does your court order say about who gets to claim the children on taxes? If it doesn't say and you both consider you have them 200 days a year, then there are 2 kids, 2 divided by 2 is 1, you each claim 1.

 

[killerzoey]

Reading your HISTORY gives a lot. Hey but you think what you want to think. I was asking questions and attempting to answer yours. You were speculating left, right and center, and I offered other reasons why he might be doing what he is doing. Then you got defensive. Says a lot about you.

Your TONE is truly accusatory. You assume the absolute worst and seem stuck in a point in time when you made up your mind about someone without allowing for any sort of evolution in a situation. If you phrased your "questions" with more true curiosity and less condemnation, I would tend to think that maybe I got overly defensive. But I think this was the correct level of defensiveness for what you dished out.

 

[stealth2]

Your TONE is truly accusatory. You assume the absolute worst and seem stuck in a point in time when you made up your mind about someone without allowing for any sort of evolution in a situation. If you phrased your "questions" with more true curiosity and less condemnation, I would tend to think that maybe I got overly defensive. But I think this was the correct level of defensiveness for what you dished out.

Get over yourself, sweetheart, and be glad you have a lawyer trying to help you. For free.

 

[CJane]

Zoey, you should consider the overnights as if Dad had both children for the "most" time possible.

So, if he has X 3 nights every week, he has 3 overnights/week on average. If he only has Y for one of those nights, fine. You don't "split up" the overnights.

Your order (I get that it's temporary) is terrible. BUT, it specifies no more than 3 overnights - so he gets no more than 3. You certainly COULD tell him "I'm sorry, you've had 3 overnights with X this week in which you chose not to also have Y. The order states that you get 3 overnights, max."

Yeah, it kind of makes you sound like a b*tch if you can't figure out how to word it well, but the kids deserve a little consistency. And him taking one but not the other isn't allowing him to establish a bond with the child. (I know you're not "withholding", he's choosing to do it this way) That's not really fair to kiddo. And she WILL notice that Daddy always wants X but not her.

Do you establish these nights/which kiddo he'll take/etc via email? Text? Telephone conversations?

If this WAS about child support (and I realize you've said it's not), you should know that there Hawaii ONLY considers time spent with the children as a factor in determining the child support amount when the NCP has more than 143 overnights/year. This is considered "Extensive Visitation". OR if there is a TRUE 50/50 split.

Also, it's easier, rather than trying to figure out how many days/week he has the child, to figure out how many he has out of 14.

So, if he has 2 overnights one week and 3 the next, he had 5/14 or 130 overnights/year.

If he has 3 EACH week, or 6/14, he has 156 overnights.

One allows the "extensive visitation" credit, the other does not. But BOTH are totally possible with what you describe.

I DO think that it's important that he's shown so little interest in having the younger child for overnights when it might inconvenience him, or seem overwhelming. Believe me, there are plenty of nights that I wish for Calgon to take my kids away ( ) but no one ever does. And I cope. His lack of ability to cope with that - or lack of desire to learn to cope with that SHOULD be addressed. Sooner rather than later.

ETA: Forgot my cite...

http://islandlawyers.com/child-support.asp

Joint custody child support calculations are made where the parties EQUALLY SHARE the time with the child or children. "Extensive visitation" is a calculation used where the non-custodial parent has more than 143 days with the child, but less than 50% of the time (50% of the time would be joint custody). The Child Support Guidelines for JOINT custody results in child support numbers that are considerably less than those for sole custody to one parent. The Child Support Guidelines for EXTENSIVE VISITATION results in child support numbers that are less than calculated for sole custody, but more than calculated for joint custody.

 

[Ohiogal]

Your TONE is truly accusatory. You assume the absolute worst and seem stuck in a point in time when you made up your mind about someone without allowing for any sort of evolution in a situation. If you phrased your "questions" with more true curiosity and less condemnation, I would tend to think that maybe I got overly defensive. But I think this was the correct level of defensiveness for what you dished out.

There is not a tone in words on a screen except the one YOU add when reading it. So if there is accusation there it comes from you. How about this -- tell me what to write to satisfy you. It might make you feel better even though I won't change a thing to suit you.

 

[TinkerBelleLuvr]

Actually, I think that the whole "child support" thing may be a calculated act on the part of the X who may know about the 143 day rule.

Think of it this way. He decides that he has child 1 on 3 days. He decides that he wants child 2 on 2 other days. All of a sudden, he's saying that he has the children 5 days out of 7.

Zoey, I've kept track of these threads. If it were me, dad would get the option of 3 specific days. It's up to him whether he chooses to take 1 or 2 children on those specific days. Children deserve to know their schedule. As the older one gets to understanding a calendar, then they can see when they are which each parent. It's part of making it stable in a split situation.

 

[LdiJ]

Actually, I think that the whole "child support" thing may be a calculated act on the part of the X who may know about the 143 day rule.

Think of it this way. He decides that he has child 1 on 3 days. He decides that he wants child 2 on 2 other days. All of a sudden, he's saying that he has the children 5 days out of 7.

Zoey, I've kept track of these threads. If it were me, dad would get the option of 3 specific days. It's up to him whether he chooses to take 1 or 2 children on those specific days. Children deserve to know their schedule. As the older one gets to understanding a calendar, then they can see when they are which each parent. It's part of making it stable in a split situation.

I agree....I will also add, since she mentioned taxes, the the federal tax code is a per dependent/child thing.

So, if he had child A, three overnights a week, he would not be the custodial parent of that child for tax purposes, because he would not have had the child overnight for more than 1/2 of the calendar year.

The same applies to child B.

He doesn't get to add the two children together to determine whether or not he is the custodial parent for tax purposes. Each child is separate.

 

[TinkerBelleLuvr]

Ldij, you and I both know that. But, does the STBX understand that? I suspect not. Zoey, you are being set up here.

 

[LdiJ]

Ldij, you and I both know that. But, does the STBX understand that? I suspect not. Zoey, you are being set up here.

Its possible that she is being set up...its possible that she is not. Its possible that dad simply doesn't want the responsibility of both children at the same time. I have actually seen some cases like that.

I do think that she should keep a calendar/journal clearly spelling when dad has each of the children, and I agree with you that dad should only get three nights a week, total, whether he takes just one or takes both.