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Exclusion of UNDERGraduate tuition remission from Federal income

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HRZ

Senior Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? PA

WHat is outcome of tax free status of UNDERGRADUATE tuition remission for family/ dependents in the reformed tax act?

I Know exclusion from income was to be axed ...and graduate tuition waiver / remission as untaxed was preserved at last minute ..but I could not find undergraduate outcome .

Thanks .
 


LdiJ

Senior Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? PA

WHat is outcome of tax free status of UNDERGRADUATE tuition remission for family/ dependents in the reformed tax act?

I Know exclusion from income was to be axed ...and graduate tuition waiver / remission as untaxed was preserved at last minute ..but I could not find undergraduate outcome .

Thanks .
Until the bill is published and we see everything that is in it, nobody is going to be able to answer that question.
 

FlyingRon

Senior Member
There's nothing magic about graduate vs. undergraduate. The reason it mostly applies to graduate students is that they are paid employees (research or teaching assistants, let's say), in addition, to getting the tuition remission. If you're not working for the university and the school chooses to lower the tuition for you, that's not taxable.

Anyway, as it currently stands (and I don't think it's going to get further revised at this point), the waiver-is-income provision is gone.
 
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LdiJ

Senior Member
There's nothing magic about graduate vs. undergraduate. The reason it mostly applies to graduate students is that they are paid employees (research or teaching assistants, let's say), in addition, to getting the tuition remission. If you're not working for the university and the school chooses to lower the tuition for you, that's not taxable.
We assume that its not. However, I am unwilling to guarantee anything for 2018 forward until the whole bill is published.
 

Taxing Matters

Overtaxed Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? PA

WHat is outcome of tax free status of UNDERGRADUATE tuition remission for family/ dependents in the reformed tax act?

I Know exclusion from income was to be axed ...and graduate tuition waiver / remission as untaxed was preserved at last minute ..but I could not find undergraduate outcome .

Thanks .
What exactly do you mean by “undergraduate tuition remission”? That is not a phrase used in federal tax law. Perhaps you might explain the transaction that is the basis for your question.

In any event, Part IV of HR 1, as enrolled (i.e. the version that passed both houses and is now going to be printed on parchment and sent to the president for approval) makes only two changes to education related provisions of the tax code. Section 11031 of the bill adds a new paragraph (5) to IRC § 108(f) that excludes from income the discharge of student loans that occurs because the borrower died. Section 11032 of the bill adds a new paragraph (7) to IRC § 529(c) which will allow up to $10,000 of distributions per year from § 529 accounts to pay for elementary and secondary education. This will be a nice little boost to private elementary, junior/middle school, and high school programs.
 

cbg

I'm a Northern Girl
While in theory you are correct and I don't put anything past this Congress, I've been paying a lot of attention to the tuition reimbursement and dependent care FSA's because we have been getting questions from our employees as to what's going to happen (and the answer we give them is "We won't know until the bill is published"). However, while anything could (and most likely will) change, everything that has been published up to now and as recently as Tuesday indicates that tuition reimbursement plans in general are being left alone.

Is that something I'm willing to carve in stone? No. But I think it's reasonably sure that no one should be losing any sleep over it. There are plenty of other things in that bill to lose sleep over; no need to make any up.
 

Taxing Matters

Overtaxed Member
We assume that its not. However, I am unwilling to guarantee anything for 2018 forward until the whole bill is published.
If you want to see the enrolled bill (which is the version being sent to the president) you will find that directly from Congress itself here:
https://www.congress.gov/115/bills/hr1/BILLS-115hr1enr.pdf
 

HRZ

Senior Member
THanks for the link....at least a short read did not show that the broad exclusions of tuition remission for dependents as per Sec 117(d) of IRC had been eliminated in tax reform ...it's a big number in planning ahead on parts of my family tree.


As an aside I missed the point about reversing deduction/ inclusion of alimony in taxable income in earlier reads ..will be some very unhappy payors .
 

Taxing Matters

Overtaxed Member
Thanks for that link.
You’re welcome. Tracking new tax legislation is something I learned a long time ago as my clients expect that I will be familiar with and can advise them on pending changes that may affect them. I don’t bother looking much at bills that have no chance to pass, and there are a lot of those each session of Congress — tax bills are the most common type of bills congresspersons like to introduce. But once they clear the Senate Finance or House Ways and Means committee I pay more attention as getting through committee signals the bill may indeed have some serious chance of passing. Congress has made this task even easier as I can track it directly through the Library of Congress and get copies of the bills there timely. It used to take sending couriers to capitol hill many years ago to get bill copies. There are lots of things that our government is not great at, but it does a pretty decent job of providing access to legislation and laws on the internet. The U.S. provides much more of this kind of information to the public than just about any other nation on earth. That’s at least one (admittedly small) thing to be thankful for regardless of where you stand on the liberal - conservative spectrum of thought. :D
 

LdiJ

Senior Member
You’re welcome. Tracking new tax legislation is something I learned a long time ago as my clients expect that I will be familiar with and can advise them on pending changes that may affect them. I don’t bother looking much at bills that have no chance to pass, and there are a lot of those each session of Congress — tax bills are the most common type of bills congresspersons like to introduce. But once they clear the Senate Finance or House Ways and Means committee I pay more attention as getting through committee signals the bill may indeed have some serious chance of passing. Congress has made this task even easier as I can track it directly through the Library of Congress and get copies of the bills there timely. It used to take sending couriers to capitol hill many years ago to get bill copies. There are lots of things that our government is not great at, but it does a pretty decent job of providing access to legislation and laws on the internet. The U.S. provides much more of this kind of information to the public than just about any other nation on earth. That’s at least one (admittedly small) thing to be thankful for regardless of where you stand on the liberal - conservative spectrum of thought. :D
I try to keep track of what is going on as well, and can read legalese quite well, but the tax code literally makes my head spin. The professor I had for S-Corp Taxation had something he used to say about the tax code that I wish I could remember, but it was something along the lines of it being written badly on purpose so that the IRS could interpret it anyway they wanted. (he was joking of course).

When they are making changes it drives me nuts trying to read back and forth between the existing code and the proposed changes, in order to make sure that I understand exactly what they are trying to change. I can only handle about an hour of it at a time before I just shut down.

I have been fielding questions from clients all week and most of them are NOT happy. I have also been trying to run the numbers in various scenarios and I don't think what's being published so far, as far as scenarios is concerned, is very accurate.

The results for families with children are not very promising at all.
 

Taxing Matters

Overtaxed Member
I try to keep track of what is going on as well, and can read legalese quite well, but the tax code literally makes my head spin. The professor I had for S-Corp Taxation had something he used to say about the tax code that I wish I could remember, but it was something along the lines of it being written badly on purpose so that the IRS could interpret it anyway they wanted. (he was joking of course).
It doesn’t make my head spin, but then I used to be counsel at the IRS national office and literally spent a good part of most work days reading through the code, regs, and proposed legislation. I also read a lot of other statutes and regs now as my practice involves more than just federal tax law. It may surprise a lot of people that federal tax legislation, as dense as some of it is, is generally better written than a lot of other stuff Congress and particularly state legislatures put out. The reason is that Congress has a professional staff in the joint committee on taxation that helps to write the legislation and advise members on tax issues. The joint committee on taxation is unique in Congress in having a specialized staff that serves both houses in drafting on legislation on a single subject area. There are three other joint committees, one more of a policy body, the joint economic committee, and the other two are institutional support, the joint committees on the library and printing.

I have been fielding questions from clients all week and most of them are NOT happy.
So far my clients are at least not unhappy. Some will not see much change in their bottom line, and some others will benefit significantly from the bill. So far none of them are significantly worse off after these changes.

I have also been trying to run the numbers in various scenarios and I don't think what's being published so far, as far as scenarios is concerned, is very accurate.
The problem is that few taxpayers actually match the scenarios that the media come up with to illustrate the effect of the legislation. Every taxpayer’s situation is a bit different so I dislike the media accounts that make sweeping generalizations about who benefits and who doesn’t based off just a few hypothetical scenarios.

The results for families with children are not very promising at all.
A lot depends on the details of all their finances. Certainly larger families that had lots of itemized deductions will feel the loss of the personal exemptions and cut back on deductions more acutely. The question for them is whether the other provisions, like larger standard deduction, etc., will make up for that, and that will vary from one taxpayer to the next.
 

LdiJ

Senior Member
A lot depends on the details of all their finances. Certainly larger families that had lots of itemized deductions will feel the loss of the personal exemptions and cut back on deductions more acutely. The question for them is whether the other provisions, like larger standard deduction, etc., will make up for that, and that will vary from one taxpayer to the next.
I do agree that its going to vary, but in all of the permutations I have tried, there have been few that did much more than break even, and some that were much worse off...particularly those with multiple children who are out of EIC range but still only have modest incomes.
 

FlyingRon

Senior Member
We assume that its not. However, I am unwilling to guarantee anything for 2018 forward until the whole bill is published.
The whole bill IS published. Every major version of the bill has been published. At this point the only way it's going to changed is if Trump vetoes it which would be highly unlikely (and it would mean the death of it, as while the Repulbicans managed to eek out a majority to get it passed, they don't have the 2/3 needed to override).
 

Taxing Matters

Overtaxed Member
At this point the only way it's going to changed is if Trump vetoes it which would be highly unlikely (and it would mean the death of it, as while the Repulbicans managed to eek out a majority to get it passed, they don't have the 2/3 needed to override).
The president has already said this morning that he will sign the bill later today.
 

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