Fired today company kept my tools

[AtheHun]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Washington State

Hello folks.

I am an over 60 year old shop mechanic for a mid sized construction related company that dominated their sector in this NW region.

I have worked at this company for three years eight months.

I have a very good record at work, (until late July 2016), I am punctual, work very hard and long hours, accept overtime assignments that most other co-workers reject.

Approximately 18 months ago my employer hired a mid twenties shop mechanic, and two months later my supervisor told me in front of witnesses that the chief operating officer wanted me replaced with a younger shop mechanic similar to the new hire.

In the last week of July 2016 on a Monday my employer hired another shop mechanic in his early twenties, I was put on thirty day notice with weekly reviews that same day with trumped up subjective and specious issues that I asked to be clarified, (names, dates of actual the events), which my boss refused to do, (because these so called items needing immediate improvement were actually false).

I delayed signing the notice until I could correct my employment record denying the false statements, but did sign the notice with my attached one page statement of denial of each item and repeated in writing my earlier verbal request for specific clarification later that same day.

My boss was not happy but the rest of the week went smoothly until Friday when he asked me to work on Sunday, (the week at that employer ends Saturday at midnight). I gave a qualified answer, (for the first time in three and one half years), and my boss acted surprised, (as if the thirty day notice didn't exist). I said I would do the overtime work Sunday if I would remain employed for the full week, (most of my co-workers refuse overtime on weekends).

My Boss laughed and then gave me a glowing weekly review, (as if I had actually changed anything from prior to the notice, which I had not), I always work as hard and efficiently as I can.

He mentioned some specifics on the false issues he had raised in the earlier notice which turned out to be the work of other team members that I do not supervise. He also reiterated has statement that he was actually trying to save my job from the head of operations mentioned 16 months earlier. I said little, at the time, but on Sunday I typed up a detailed document to show he was claiming my poor work was actually other team members and to document what he had said about the head of operations. I also stated I had done nothing different from the my performance pre notice. I left it on his desk.

My boss was very angry the next Monday when I arrived, (the younger team member was late to work as he has been over 50% of the time). That is when the environment got very hostile and remained very hostile for me until today when I was fired.

I plan to file an EEOC grievance for age discrimination this next week, (I have a great deal of documentation of the extremely hostile environment since late July), and I am fairly sure they will find age discrimination in my case. I also learned that many other over 40 year old employees at this location of this company have been fired over the last two years, or retired under pressure and many other current over 40 year old employees are badly demoralized by this same head of operations.

It looks to be systemic and another 60 year old employee plans to file a complaint with the EEOC this next week as well.

The President, (who had previously always been pleasant to me), got very angry on a trumped up incident and fired me early this morning. I have refused to quit even though I could tell that they wanted me to and the pressure was growing each day.

He took me to the parking lot (with a witness) and forced me to turn in all my shop/yard keys and company cell phone and credit card, he said they would hold onto my tool chest, (which was locked). I had a carrier that could have taken the tool set with me had it been allowed, (as I have been expecting termination at any time). I was forced to open each drawer and I did remove a few minor inexpensive items my employer had provided each mechanic so all of the tools were clearly mine, (the President took photos of each drawer), I then locked my tool set and he forced me to leave the tools of my trade inside a locked shop that I have no key to. He said it would be shipped to me next week.

It that legal to hold my personal property against my wishes?

What recourse do I have?

Thanks in advance for any help here,

Respectfully,

AtheHun.

 

[adjusterjack]

He took me to the parking lot (with a witness) and forced me to turn in all my shop/yard keys and company cell phone and credit card, he said they would hold onto my tool chest, (which was locked). I had a carrier that could have taken the tool set with me had it been allowed, (as I have been expecting termination at any time). I was forced to open each drawer and I did remove a few minor inexpensive items my employer had provided each mechanic so all of the tools were clearly mine, (the President took photos of each drawer), I then locked my tool set and he forced me to leave the tools of my trade inside a locked shop that I have no key to. He said it would be shipped to me next week.

It that legal to hold my personal property against my wishes?

Nothing illegal about you consenting to leave your tools behind. Spin it whatever way you like but nobody put a gun to your head.

You could have, and should have, just refused to leave the shop without your tools. Had you stood up to your employer instead of being a sheep, it could have precipitated a call to the police either by him or by you and you would have been able to leave with your tools if you made enough of a stink about it.

But you basically left them behind at your boss' request. That's consent.

What recourse do I have?

Sue for the return of your property. It's a civil matter now.

 

[AtheHun]

Nothing illegal about you consenting to leave your tools behind. Spin it whatever way you like but nobody put a gun to your head.

You could have, and should have, just refused to leave the shop without your tools. Had you stood up to your employer instead of being a sheep, it could have precipitated a call to the police either by him or by you and you would have been able to leave with your tools if you made enough of a stink about it.

But you basically left them behind at your boss' request. That's consent.



Sue for the return of your property. It's a civil matter now.

Other then being a pussy, (which is I guess what you are saying here), I certainly did not "consent" to them keeping my tools.

The tool set is heavy enough that I would have needed a to use a forklift, (which they took the key I used to use to start said forklift which belongs to them) to load the roll-away set onto the carrier I had for the receiver hitch on my SUV.

I am sure you are potentially correct and they do want to bait me into spending my resources and time suing them.

I hope someone with knowledge of the Washington State Department of Labor and Industries can chime in here, as I need to pursue an unemployment claim, (they made it clear they will attempt to deny me unemployment insurance).

Thanks for the disappointing reply.

 

[AtheHun]

I was ordered off their property and warned never to return, so you maybe correct: they prolly want me to sue, as they have far greater resources then I do.

I sent a demand to HR Friday to have my tools delivered by 4:00 PM Monday or I would call the Sheriff, I have had zero reply from HR.

The small claims limit in Washington State I think is $4,000 which should cover a new set of tools and a new roll-away chest, and then I would not be subject to a lot of expense and back and forth discovery if they decided to contend I have their things, (which I do not).

What a nightmare.

 

[cbg]

I am asking this question for a reason.

In an ideal world, what is the answer you wanted someone to give you? What would be the answer that you were hoping to hear?

 

[commentator]

You did well to leave without demanding anything or refusing to comply with their demands. I have seen several (particularly construction) companies manage to get the police on the scene and have the angry employee be the one who gets hauled away, when in reality the employee was being treated very poorly and had been goaded into reacting in argument and anger. It wasn't acting like a wimp, it was being wise to get out calmly and without law enforcement intervention.

First of all, the first thing for you to do is file a claim for unemployment insurance immediately. This claim will be totally and completely separate from any age discrimination issue or complaint you may want to file with the EEOC after you've begun the unemployment process.

It will also be totally separate from the issue in which you attempt to get your tools back, and that they failed to let you take your tools away will not be a really big issue in the filing of your unemployment claim.

That they will "attempt to deny" you unemployment is not important. They do not get to say, and what they want to and don't want to do about your unemployment benefits is irrelevant. You will file the claim. They will ask "Why are you no longer working at this job?" and they will ask "What exactly went down the day you were told you were no longer employed there?" They'll want to know exactly about what was said by whom, what former performance issues were brought up, what exact reason were you told that you were being fired for?

You did well not to quit. If they can force you to quit, there is a much smaller chance for you to be approved for unemployment than if the company fires you. If you're fired, they'd have to show they had a valid, misconduct reason to fire you, that you had knowledge that your performance was inadequate and that you deliberately chose to keep doing the poor performance that they'd warned you about. Which of course, from your version, hasn't been what has happened at all.

It is not traditional for construction companies to fight unemployment claims too terribly hard, as they are maximum payers anyway, and usually it's less trouble to just not put up a diligent fight against someone drawing benefits. But we don't know what your employers will do, and they always have the right to protest your receiving benefits, just as you have the right to file for benefits.

So file, and be prepared for them to fight the claim. Your story and their story will be weighed against each other. Neither side is given more credibility, they are supposed to go with the "most believable" of the two versions of what happened. Don't be overly surprised if the company representative lies about things. Just keep telling your story of what happened. Stress that you always did your job to the very best of your abilities and that you did not want to lose your job.

There will be a decision made about whether or not they had a valid misconduct reason to terminate you. Whether you are approved on that first decision or not, either party can appeal and there will be a hearing. Then another decision will be made. This isn't unusual prejudice, this is just the way the unemployment system works.

It will take six to eight weeks before you received a first unemployment check in the best of circumstances, will probably be quite a while, though if approved you'd be back paid for each week you have certified for after you have filed the claim, which is why I say file the claim immediately.

But this is nothing compared to how long it will take for the EEOC to look at your complaint and decide if you are going to get a right to sue letter, which will be the first step in suing your former employer for age discrimination. It does sound as if there was just a bit of that going on, I'm fairly sure you won't have a problem getting some attorney to take your case and work on this with you, if you have the time and money to spend pursuing it. Maybe you and your co-worker who is about to file a grievance can work together?

But remember, unemployment insurance you do first, it has nothing to do with all the other issues you have going here, and there's no need to have an attorney before you file the unemployment claim.

Then, with the claim filed, you may want to begin talking to attorneys, and let them work with you on getting the tools back. It sounds like your company is sort of eaten up with stupidity, and you're well rid of them, but it will be as big a hassle as they can make it to get your unemployment approved, your tools returned, and an EEOC complaint lodged against them.

By the way, do be sure when you file for unemployment that you do not tell the system anything except that you are able, available and actively looking for another equivalent job. Don't say anything like, "Well, I think I will just retire" or "Till this issue is settled, I'll just concentrate on my lawsuit!" or "Until I get my tools back, I can't take another job." File the certifications for each week that passes as soon as you file the claim and participate in all the job searching activities they require of you. Older workers who are filing for unemployment are put through a much more rigorous job search than most, but you can certainly help yourself by cooperating with them.

 

[justalayman]

You have only $4k in tools? I have a friend whose toolbox cost $11k by itself. An inexpensive toolbox is well over $1k. In the construction industry tools tend to be of the "large" varsity. Nuts and bolts on Lulls, payloaders, excavators, and other construction equipment can be big. That means big wrenches, sockets, air impact guns and so on.

I suggest you reinventory (mentally) and revalue your tool set. If it comes down to having to fight for your tools I suspect you may be dealing with much more in value than you realize.

 

[AtheHun]

I am asking this question for a reason.

In an ideal world, what is the answer you wanted someone to give you? What would be the answer that you were hoping to hear?

I wanted an accurate answer which is what I got.

I don't need a feel good session, I just need spot on perspectives.

I never thought they did that to bait me into a lawsuit, but it is likely they did as the first responder said to me. That is why I like these forums.

I didn't think of the angle he did, and I'm glad he replied as he did. What is your point here?

 

[AtheHun]

You did well to leave without demanding anything or refusing to comply with their demands. I have seen several (particularly construction) companies manage to get the police on the scene and have the angry employee be the one who gets hauled away, when in reality the employee was being treated very poorly and had been goaded into reacting in argument and anger. It wasn't acting like a wimp, it was being wise to get out calmly and without law enforcement intervention.

First of all, the first thing for you to do is file a claim for unemployment insurance immediately. This claim will be totally and completely separate from any age discrimination issue or complaint you may want to file with the EEOC after you've begun the unemployment process.

It will also be totally separate from the issue in which you attempt to get your tools back, and that they failed to let you take your tools away will not be a really big issue in the filing of your unemployment claim.

That they will "attempt to deny" you unemployment is not important. They do not get to say, and what they want to and don't want to do about your unemployment benefits is irrelevant. You will file the claim. They will ask "Why are you no longer working at this job?" and they will ask "What exactly went down the day you were told you were no longer employed there?" They'll want to know exactly about what was said by whom, what former performance issues were brought up, what exact reason were you told that you were being fired for?

You did well not to quit. If they can force you to quit, there is a much smaller chance for you to be approved for unemployment than if the company fires you. If you're fired, they'd have to show they had a valid, misconduct reason to fire you, that you had knowledge that your performance was inadequate and that you deliberately chose to keep doing the poor performance that they'd warned you about. Which of course, from your version, hasn't been what has happened at all.

It is not traditional for construction companies to fight unemployment claims too terribly hard, as they are maximum payers anyway, and usually it's less trouble to just not put up a diligent fight against someone drawing benefits. But we don't know what your employers will do, and they always have the right to protest your receiving benefits, just as you have the right to file for benefits.

So file, and be prepared for them to fight the claim. Your story and their story will be weighed against each other. Neither side is given more credibility, they are supposed to go with the "most believable" of the two versions of what happened. Don't be overly surprised if the company representative lies about things. Just keep telling your story of what happened. Stress that you always did your job to the very best of your abilities and that you did not want to lose your job.

There will be a decision made about whether or not they had a valid misconduct reason to terminate you. Whether you are approved on that first decision or not, either party can appeal and there will be a hearing. Then another decision will be made. This isn't unusual prejudice, this is just the way the unemployment system works.

It will take six to eight weeks before you received a first unemployment check in the best of circumstances, will probably be quite a while, though if approved you'd be back paid for each week you have certified for after you have filed the claim, which is why I say file the claim immediately.

But this is nothing compared to how long it will take for the EEOC to look at your complaint and decide if you are going to get a right to sue letter, which will be the first step in suing your former employer for age discrimination. It does sound as if there was just a bit of that going on, I'm fairly sure you won't have a problem getting some attorney to take your case and work on this with you, if you have the time and money to spend pursuing it. Maybe you and your co-worker who is about to file a grievance can work together?

But remember, unemployment insurance you do first, it has nothing to do with all the other issues you have going here, and there's no need to have an attorney before you file the unemployment claim.

Then, with the claim filed, you may want to begin talking to attorneys, and let them work with you on getting the tools back. It sounds like your company is sort of eaten up with stupidity, and you're well rid of them, but it will be as big a hassle as they can make it to get your unemployment approved, your tools returned, and an EEOC complaint lodged against them.

By the way, do be sure when you file for unemployment that you do not tell the system anything except that you are able, available and actively looking for another equivalent job. Don't say anything like, "Well, I think I will just retire" or "Till this issue is settled, I'll just concentrate on my lawsuit!" or "Until I get my tools back, I can't take another job." File the certifications for each week that passes as soon as you file the claim and participate in all the job searching activities they require of you. Older workers who are filing for unemployment are put through a much more rigorous job search than most, but you can certainly help yourself by cooperating with them.

Thanks, spot on advice, very much appreciated.

 

[AtheHun]

You have only $4k in tools? I have a friend whose toolbox cost $11k by itself. An inexpensive toolbox is well over $1k. In the construction industry tools tend to be of the "large" varsity. Nuts and bolts on Lulls, payloaders, excavators, and other construction equipment can be big. That means big wrenches, sockets, air impact guns and so on.

I suggest you reinventory (mentally) and revalue your tool set. If it comes down to having to fight for your tools I suspect you may be dealing with much more in value than you realize.

I never brought my full name brand tool set to this job, (it is at my property and prolly worth $20,000 give or take). I used Harbor Freight Chinese stuff, (it worked fine for this job).

I've known I would be fired for 7 weeks, so I was as ready as possible. I took all my real (need to have) tools to my property, (except my porta power which I should have taken), so I'm not worried and the $4,000 will come in handy if they want to keep my locked box. I just never thought they would take my fork lift key and keep the tools. They also have been scheming on how to blow me out, (I didn't think they would be this petty).

I'm VERY glad to be done with the stress.

Got a gold crown last week, $1,200, (they pay half); and a kidney stone blasted $20,000 give or take this last Monday, (they pay all unless I have more minimum to meet). Friday was a great day to get fired. UEC claim Monday, EEOC by Friday.

They gave me a ridiculous $10,000 offer with three months of COBRA, ($3,600), where I resign n' have zero further claims. handed to me as I was fired. My UEC benes are over $15,000. Their first offer was much lower then that. They must think I'm stuck on stupid.

I'm rolling over my 401-k, (I'm 40-60% vested on the company match depending on my hours worked, prolly 60% unless they are sharp enough to have done the math and 9/23 worked in their favor). My contributions are Roth so I can pull tax free to tide me over until I get another job.

I had a lot of work friends there who were shocked I was getting the boot, (they actually didn't believe me), and thought the company would keep me, and I was just being a drama queen. I out work all the other support people (prolly 2 to 1... or at least 50% more output), and that place will be a major mess in a week or two.

It is always very obvious when I'm gone for a few days on vacation et al.

 

[eerelations]

I wanted an accurate answer which is what I got.

I don't need a feel good session, I just need spot on perspectives.

I never thought they did that to bait me into a lawsuit, but it is likely they did as the first responder said to me. That is why I like these forums.

I didn't think of the angle he did, and I'm glad he replied as he did. What is your point here?

Good on you for dissing the one person here who has more knowledge of/experience with employment law in her little finger than the rest of us put together. She said she had a reason for asking these questions, and she did. Had you simply answered her questions instead of calling her motives into question, you might have received an excellent informational response. Now? Maybe not.

 

[cbg]

I had a point, yes, and it wasn't the one you evidently thought. I wasn't calling your motives into question or accusing you of anything. But first, you still haven't answered my question and even if you do so now, I'm not inclined to offer any assistance at this point.

 

[eerelations]

I had a point, yes, and it wasn't the one you evidently thought. I wasn't calling your motives into question or accusing you of anything. But first, you still haven't answered my question and even if you do so now, I'm not inclined to offer any assistance at this point.

Like button.

 

[AtheHun]

Good on you for dissing the one person here who has more knowledge of/experience with employment law in her little finger than the rest of us put together. She said she had a reason for asking these questions, and she did. Had you simply answered her questions instead of calling her motives into question, you might have received an excellent informational response. Now? Maybe not.

I did answer her question(s). Why did she think, (and you think), I 'dissed' her?

 

[AtheHun]

I learned that small claims court here in WA is $5,000 not $4,000 so I think I will go ahead and file a small claims suit Tuesday morning if they blow off my Monday deadline, (as I bet they will).

My former employer only has my UPS box as my address, and they also know about my recreational property location, where I was planning to take the tool chest if they would have let me use the fork lift to put it on my SUV.

I don't have the space here at home, and they don't know where I live, (unless they tracked my company cell phone).

I will talk to UPS first, (to see it they can accept such a large package), which I kinda doubt. If UPS can take delivery of the tool set, I will wait until Tuesday before filing suit.