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Fraud on part of officer writing ticket.

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seniorjudge said:
Post back with your results.

It seems to me that when you signed the ticket and agreed that you were guilty, that you gave up a lot of rights.

But, I will wait and see what happens to you. Post back please.
A citation being an accusation that a particular act was committed, it would seem that if the act described were fiction, an impossibility, that the signature has as little meaning as the other markings on the paper....that the citation, though titled in that fashion, does not rise to status of a legal document. As for "giving up rights", the conditions under which such a thing can legally be accomplished seem rather clearly not to be at a lonely roadside, in what is to most citizens, to a reasonable person, a coercive position. These may be points of law, and deserving of consideration in a court setting, but I am having little luck in obtaining such a setting. Nobody in official position will even respond to letters.
 


harbor14

Member
poppakeith said:
A citation being an accusation that a particular act was committed, it would seem that if the act described were fiction, an impossibility, that the signature has as little meaning as the other markings on the paper....that the citation, though titled in that fashion, does not rise to status of a legal document. As for "giving up rights", the conditions under which such a thing can legally be accomplished seem rather clearly not to be at a lonely roadside, in what is to most citizens, to a reasonable person, a coercive position. These may be points of law, and deserving of consideration in a court setting, but I am having little luck in obtaining such a setting. Nobody in official position will even respond to letters.
A criminal citation is a legal charging document. New Mexico traffic violations are criminal as opposed to civil (like here in Washington for the most part). The charging document (citation) does not find you guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, only a court can do that. You are given a choice at the stop (we have an ex NM trooper working for us); plead guilty and agree to pay the fine or ask for a court date - this is done on the spot. There is nothing coercive about it. IF you chose guilty and pay the fine - your court options go right out the window. IF you chose to have a court date all you options remain intact. Miranda doesnt apply - you have no argument there. It is entirely your choice which option to chose. I dont see any legal argumetnt.
 
harbor14 said:
A criminal citation is a legal charging document. New Mexico traffic violations are criminal as opposed to civil (like here in Washington for the most part). The charging document (citation) does not find you guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, only a court can do that. You are given a choice at the stop (we have an ex NM trooper working for us); plead guilty and agree to pay the fine or ask for a court date - this is done on the spot. There is nothing coercive about it. IF you chose guilty and pay the fine - your court options go right out the window. IF you chose to have a court date all you options remain intact. Miranda doesnt apply - you have no argument there. It is entirely your choice which option to chose. I dont see any legal argumetnt.
Harbor14,
The Miranda vs. Arizona case, itself, was no different than here. The man incriminated himself out of ignorance of his rights. My plea of guilty was specific to the acts I committed....I was traveling 65 MPH, at the location where I was (and the cop, too) at the time. The officer used language on the citation that I could not understand (when he wrote down code for a place which was 63 miles away from where we were actually located), and that means the description of the infraction of which I am accused is a fiction, a false charge, an impossibility. In fact, I was (and plead guilty to) driving 65 MPH in what is in fact a 65MPH zone. In other words, I am guilty of what I plead to, but could not know the citation charges that I was at a spot which is 63 miles away....and he did not tell me that, nor would a reasonable person comprehend that the officer was committing a fraud. My trust in the officer's honesty is where the ignorance lies.

To review: For location, the officer wrote down "District 2", "Mile post 103". We were located, to my knowledge and that of my witness (a federal judge) at a spot approximately 5 miles south of Interstate 40. Travelers do not know which district they are in, and the mile posts on old US highways are not evident (I never saw any). It was weeks later that I researched this location matter, and discovered our true location at the stop was in District 9, mile post 38. Only then was I equipped to enter an informed plea.

As for the "coercive" and "choice" element, there would be none, at least not much, to a local who can go to court with no real strain. For me, to do so would mean three days of travel (1700 miles) and staying at least two nights on the road. Chosing such a prospect is like agreeing to be whipped with a rubber hose. I would choose to pay $80 rather easily under those conditions. Still would....and probably will. But, all this discussion is about how to get justice, and why it is not justice for me to be stopped in the first place, and fined to boot, just because a cop wants to create a false record as to where he was located on that afternoon....and is aided in the commission of such a fraud by an odd and unusual law on the New Mexico books which forces choices of this nature, under the power of an armed man, on a lonely road, in unfamiliar territory. Other states do not force that choice.
 
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harbor14

Member
No Miranda deals with custodial interrogation - it does not apply here. You were not in custody and were not subject to interrogation.
 
harbor14 said:
No Miranda deals with custodial interrogation - it does not apply here. You were not in custody and were not subject to interrogation.
What you say is beyond my knowledge of the particular legal status an arrested person may be enjoying. New Mexico law says (in 66-8-123 B) "Whenever a person is arrested for violation of a penalty assessment misdemeanor and elects to pay the penalty assessment, the arresting officer, using the uniform traffic citation , shall complete the information section and prepare the penalty assessment notice indicating the amount of the penalty assessment, have the arrested person sign the agreement to pay the amount prescribed, give a copy of the citation along with a business reply envelope addressed to the motor vehicle division, Santa Fe to the the arrested person and release him from custody..." I take that to mean I was under arrest at the time. Can't find "custodial interrogation" in the laws, but a plea is what the fellow demanded, and I couldn't leave until I gave one....and in answer to a paper which spoke a foreign language. Do you not accept that the writing of a coded, incorrect location constitutes a fraud perpetrated against me?
 
S

seniorjudge

Guest
"...Do you not accept that the writing of a coded, incorrect location constitutes a fraud perpetrated against me?..."

No, location is not an element of the offense.

Yes, I agree that if the statute says that you were under arrest, then the Miranda warnings should apply. However, if a cop does not ask you any questions about the elements of the crime, the Miranda warning is not necessary. All he asked you was whether you wanted to plead guilty or not guilty.
 
seniorjudge said:
"...Do you not accept that the writing of a coded, incorrect location constitutes a fraud perpetrated against me?..."

No, location is not an element of the offense.

Yes, I agree that if the statute says that you were under arrest, then the Miranda warnings should apply. However, if a cop does not ask you any questions about the elements of the crime, the Miranda warning is not necessary. All he asked you was whether you wanted to plead guilty or not guilty.
If one is traveling at the speed limit in one place, he can't at the same time be speeding at a location which is 65 miles away from that spot. I would say that location is an element of the offence charged. A guy may be swinging his arms, but he can't hit a man in the nose who is miles away from that location.

The cop asked me if I was guilty of traveling 65 mph where I was, and I said yes. But, on the paper I signed the language describing location was foreign, unintellibible, and described a different crime...one to which I would not have pled guilty had an interpreter been provided...would not incriminate myself in the crime taking place at the same time, 65 miles away from that location. Miranda intends that violation of the right not to incriminate one's self out of ignorance should not take place....that incriminating information, or the ultimate of that, confession, is not extracted from an arrested person who is ill-informed, uninformed or deceived by the state.
 

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