Fraud???

[hogangrimace]

What is the name of your state? MI

I have some friends that are in Ch. 7. However they were telling how for the last 2 years they have been transferring balances from store cr. cards to major cr. cards. (they do not come and reclaim the stuff?)
They also have been taking money out of their savings account and keeping it at home (now they have around $10,000 in cash in their home) They have a new pool, new appli., large screen tv, top of the line stereo equip., tools, jewelry, plus more! They are hiding a lot of the stuff with family and friends.
One lawyer told them he would not even touch this case but now they have filed with another one.

My question? Is this Fraud? Will they get caught up with?

He makes over $45,000 /yr she makes around $20,000 /yr.
I cringe to think they are going to get away with this!

 

[Ladynred]

Hiding assets is DEFINITELY fraud !!! Unfortunately, unless something in their papers smells bad to the Trustee, or unless someone files a proof of claim or an objection to their discharge, and brings out these facts, the will probably get away with it.

Maybe you should write an anonymous letter to the Trustee.......

 

[hogangrimace]

I found out who the trustee was and gave a call this morning to let him know there may be alittle more to the case then they are letting on. he assured me that he would check into this one a little closer. he thanked me for the extra information. I felt terriable reporting it but then my husband reminded me that we have had a car taken back and had to pay for it, and have been tight on money, it could be us there filing bk and doing it the right way!

thankyou for the info. it sure helped!

 

[anadude]

sounds like they may be in for a big surprise at their 341 hearing, hehehe.

 

[nervousnellie]

Well, I will certainly sleep better tonight now that I know justice has been done.

 

[Ladynred]

Anyone who has read my posts here knows that I don't have any particular objections to bankruptcy if people are TRULY in a tough spot. I myself am in that kind of 'spot', and my sister was overwhelmed 5 years ago and filed for BK. I know first-hand how the stress of the overwhelming debt changed her life, her personality, and her outlook and attitude about everything else. She was downright hard to live with or even talk to. I know from personal experience the kind of stresses *I* live under with this mess, and I'm filing in a few months. There is simply no other way out and keep my sanity too.

However, I have little tolerance for people who are doing what you describe - hiding assets, hiding large amounts of cash, etc. and trying to basically run a con game on the BK system. Those kinds of people will make us ALL pay dearly if that horrid bankruptcy reform bill ever gets thru and becomes law.

I hate to say it, but I'm glad you spoke to the Trustee. It may sound like a rotten thing to do on the surface, but you did the right thing.

Have a great holiday weekend !!!

 

[tct]

<sarcasm ON>
hogangrimace, you sound like a GREAT friend!
<sarcasm OFF>

Ladynred, I have some questions for you: Why are you waiting to file bk? If you need to file, why don't you do it now? Will your creditors receive less if you file a few months from now than they would have received if you had filed when you first decided you would have to file? If so, couldn't that be considered "hiding assets, hiding large amounts of cash, etc. and trying to basically run a con game on the BK system."

I truly mean no disrespect. I appreciate the help you give on this and other forums. I'm just trying to understand your position on this matter.

 

[Ladynred]

There are several factors involved as to why I'm waiting to file. Why you think waiting would be hiding assets, or running a con on the system is beyond me. I have some personal matters that are hanging fire and I don't want to have to deal with that on top of dealing with an on-going bankruptcy case. In fact, if one of those personal matters blows up, I WILL file sooner, but at the moment I feel it better to wait and see what happens with that.

I have NO savings .. well, there's a whopping $30 in my account and that's it. I have no non-exempt assets. My car is 10 years old, I do not own a home (any more) and I barely make it from one paycheck to the next. I've nothing of any value to hide or dispose of.. no stocks, no inheritances, etc. My IRA is exempt, but what's in there wouldn't pay the smallest of my debts (I've had to raid it to live on over 2 layoffs !!). I am merely doing some pre-bankruptcy planning and there is NOTHING illegal in that. I am carefully documenting EVERY penny I spend so that can fill out all the papers and be ready to hand them over to whichever attorney I decide to hire.

It is advised that you make no charges to any cards for at least 60 days prior to filing. Well, aside from 2 gas cards, which I use only occasionally, I have not used a credit card in almost 2 years.. and that had nothing to do with bankruptcy, I had no intention of filing back then. I simply decided to simplify my life and stripping credit cards out of my wallet was one of those decisions. So, if I file in November, the 60 days begins right about now.

Does that answer your question ?

 

[dave7250]

There is nothing wrong with Pre-Bankrupcy Planning. In fact I'm doing it myself.

 

[Ladynred]

Cool.. that's 2 Tennesseeans in agreement

 

[hogangrimace]

Wow, tct, I felt bad doing it, however, maybe I should explain my feelings a little better!
20 years ago my husband had a great paying job, which he lost to down sizing. He went into another job, min. wage pay, no overtime pay, no holiday pay, no vaccation pay, just plain hard work for little pay, still today he only makes $7.00 a hour, no extra frills! Not even insurance!
We had to let a car go back to ford, irs was on our backs! We did not file BK. Just worked out a payment plan! Today we have a debt around $6,000. {Credit Cards, small loan} We still pay min payments and hope to be debt free some day.

Here these people are making $60,000 to $70,000 a year with all the frills! And YOU expect me to just think it is the next best thing for them to become DEBT FREE on tax payers expense? And keep ALL their cash, ira, snowmobile, jet ski, big screen tv, dvd, and extras.

NO!

There are people who really need to file because of lost jobs, health problems, those I can understand! BUT NOT THIS CASE!

 

[Elmo-1]

Personally I think you’ve committed a putrid & cowardly act by turning in “friends”. You use that term pretty loose. I think a real “friend” would’ve called them on it to their face. Friends can do those things without fear of compromising friendship, or the other’s freedom.

Friends don’t stand in judgment of what you do, then make accusations behind their back to the authorities. I have a problem with what these people are doing, if in fact it’s true, but I got a much bigger problem with what you’re doing. It doesn’t matter what you think you know, you don’t know all the facts.

The system has checks & balances in place to take care of people that do those things, snow mobiles, jet ski, big screen tv's included. I’m sure these people have their own demons to fight, and reasons for doing what they feel they have to. I can tell you $60-70k/yr doesn’t buy many ‘frills’. And they will be judged one day, but by someone far greater than you.

So don’t pull something like that on a “friend” then come here for validation. I’m sure there’s a snitch board somewhere that would appreciate what you’ve done. For what it’s worth, I hope all your friends are from the same ‘mold’ as you. It just doesn’t fit well with me.

 

[JETX]

hogangrimace:
You did exactly what you should have done and I, for one, thank you for it.

Like Ladynred, I recognize that there are 'life-happenings' that make bankruptcy the only viable alternative for those truly in need of a 'second start'. However, I have no sympathy at all for those who might be attempting to abuse the rights of bankruptcy.

Bankruptcy is not a 'victimless' action. Anytime a person's debts are discharged, the rest of us end up paying for that persons debt. This is in the form of higher interest, higher prices and even higher taxes (to support the federal court system). Anytime someone knows that someone is trying to abuse the system, they are obligated as citizens to report that criminal activity, and that is exactly what it is. It is no less a crime to file a fraudulent bankruptcy petition as it is to rob a bank, assault someone, or steal your property.

Again, thank you for your actions and protecting the rest of us.

 

[hogangrimace]

Elmo-1-
Ishould explain the "friends" part. These are not my personal friends, they are my brother's friends. I did confront them face to face! I told them how I felt over the 4th of july week-end! He told me " Its too bad! " He'll do what he wants.
As for not knowing the whole story, your right I don't know the whole thing, however, I do know he asked my brother to "store" his jet ski and snowmobile at his house and my brother said he did not want a part of it. Then asked other members of our family.
He wanted to leave it at my father's cottage but my dad said no also.

As for income, Wow! We are farmers and make around $35,000 a year! I volunteer and donate to organization and our church. So the "frills", we don't have. We pay our bills ourself, with no outside or government help.

As for being a snitch and coming here to feel "better" about myself: 1. I didn't need to "feel" better. 2. It took all this time for me to call in (since July 4th) and I had told them I was going to do it a long time ago! 3. I feel there are those that need to file BK and when people hide things, lie, and cheat the system, it hurts others that may need the HELP!

I do not look down on those that have file. In fact I have a couple of cousins that had to file and they did it the legal way! I do not feel better or above anyone else, nor do I feel below anyone. I just try to live my own life the best I can.