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Helicopter clocked speeding violations (80 in a 70)

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seniorjudge

Guest
Standard answer

Here are some hints on appearing in court:

Dress professionally in clean clothes.

Do not wear message shirts.

Don't chew gum, smoke, or eat.

Bathe and wash your hair.

Go to court beforehand some day before you actually have to go to watch how things go.

Speak politely and deferentially. If you argue or dispute something, do it professionally and without emotion.

Ask the court clerk who you talk to about a diversion (meaning you want to plead to a different, lesser charge), if applicable in your situation. Ask about traffic school and the ticket not go on your record, if applicable.


Here are five stories that criminal court judges hear the most (and I suggest you do not use them or variations of them):

1. I’ve been saved! (This is not religion specific; folks from all kinds of religious backgrounds use this one.)

2. My girlfriend/mother/sister/daughter is pregnant/sick/dying/dead/crippled and needs my help.

3. I’ve got a job in [name a state five hundred miles away].

4. This is the first time I ever did this.

5. You’ve got the wrong guy. (A variation of this one is the phantom defendant story: “It wasn’t me driving, it was a hitchhiker I picked up. He wrecked the car, drug me behind the wheel then took off.”)

https://forum.freeadvice.com/showthread.php?p=854687#post854687

Public defender’s advice

http://newyork.craigslist.org/about/best/sfo/70300494.html


Other people may give you other advice; stand by.
 


keith.e

Member
lwpat said:
A trial by declaration is not allowed for a Texas speeding ticket. Laws vary depending on the state which is why that is required information. The officers do not have to be there on your first court date because it is only an arraingment. You can also skip it if you enter a written plea of not guilty and request a trial. Both officers would have to show on that date or you could ask for a dismissal.

Sounds to me like you best option is traffic school or a deferment. If you go to court and lose they can charge you more. Ask the clerk if they accept online school. Here is a link for more information.

http://www.trafficschoolonline.com/?lcode=4013
Thanks for your comments. I will keep it in mind.
 

marbol

Member
seniorjudge said:
Standard answer

Here are some hints on appearing in court:

[...]
You forgot another one. I'll fill it in:

DO NOT, repeat, DO NOT bring a cell phone with you into the courtroom unless 1) It's turned off - or 2) It doesn't work any more.

Don't even set it to vibrate mode. Sometimes courtrooms are very quiet, and a buzzing or vibrating phone can still be heard.

If you want to instantly make a judge dislike you, then go ahead and disrupt his court with a ringing phone or even a beeping or humming one. If you do that, you will probably loose or at least make the judge not like you at first.

Most judges will view it as if you believe your time is worth more than anyone else's in the courtroom.
 

marbol

Member
Curt581 said:
Marbol, you seem to be going on some mistaken impressions, so I'll try to correct a few.
Ah. I could tell you were a cop before I got 1/5 into your post. I think I agree with you more than you think, however, unfortunately, you are going on some mistaken impressions yourself. I'll try to describe why I think this.

It always amazes me that some people complain about delays, citing "speedy trial" violations deny their rights... while others want things delayed, so it increases the chance the officer won't remember the details.
People are different. So it doesn't really come to me as a surprise that some people will want to get a trial over with, and some will not.

Seems underhanded to me to try and manipulate the court's scheduling to your advantage. If you're really innocent, go to trail based on the FACTS.
But the system is not perfect. The odds are stacked against you. I have LOST before when I was completely innocent. There have been innocent people put to death before. So please excuse some of us for thinking that it's okay to use any and all techniques to get cleared of the charges. Especially if we believe we are innocent.

There are some pretty crappy attorneys out there. Just like crappy mechanics, plumbers, and doctors. That's why it's important to shop around.

Sometimes, even a good attorney can have a hard time proving your innocent when you're overwhelmingly guilty.
Completely agreed.

Criminal cases are different. If you fail to show up for those,
Obviosly you are not from Texas. In Texas, a traffic case IS a criminal case. There is no difference. Traffic cases are not simple "infractions" here. So in a traffic case you are afforded all that a criminal case is afforded, including the right to a trial by jury, etc.

the bond posted is forfeited, AND a warrant is issued for your arrest. If
That same thing happens in Texas. If you don't show up even if you posted bond, a warrant is issued for your arrest. You also loose the case by default for failure to show up. But the arrest warrant is ALSO issued.

Signature or personal recognizance bonds are issued only for minor offenses, unless the judge has compelling information that the defendant is guaranteed to appear for the next court date.
Which is what I would consider a traffic case to be: a minor offense. I consider it wrong to require a bond of a person for speeding, when another person gets a PR bond for rape or burglary. It happens. That doesn't make it right.

I certainly hope you are. Scheduling a trial based strictly on the hope that the officer won't show up is reckless... and arrogant in the extreme.
If I'm not guilty, then I'll use such a tactic and any other tactic that's legal to try to get aquitted.

They have much more important things to do than play games with you over a measly speeding ticket, especially when you know you're guilty.
Ah! Here is where I *really* knew you were a cop. You assume already that someone is guilty. Then you go so far as to assert that someone "knows" it - when in fact, they might not be.

If a court feels that they have better things to do than "playing games with measly speeding tickets" then I'd suggest they stop having cops write tickets for them.

In fact, if you cared to research it, many juridictions rely on the monies generated by speeding tickets to fund quite a large portion of their budgets. It was/is such a large problem in Texas that Texans had to pass special laws that prohibit counties and cities from deriving more than a specific percentage of their incomes from tickets. Apparently Kendalton Texas didn't believe that the state was serious about it, so it continued these illegal tactics until the state came in and forced the city to file bankruptcy and disband. Yes that's right, disbanded a whole city because it was a speed trap. If you don't believe me, read about it here:

http://www.roadsbridges.com/rb/index.cfm/powergrid/rfah=|cfap=/CFID/596142/CFTOKEN/93224025/fuseaction/showArticle/articleID/2653 (You have to scroll down to the words: "Big trouble in little Texas town"

And to top it all off, the commissioner was just found guilty of keeping a lot of that money himself: http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/txs/releases/February2005/050209-Mann.htm

You might like us to believe this is an isolated incident, but if it is, then why did the state of Texas have to make such a special law?

It's no wonder citizens are taking a dim view of government and police.

And if you think such things only happen in Texas, check this: http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/924501/posts

That's what pretrial motions are for. Go ahead and ask for certifications, etc. The vast majority of us have all of our documentation ready to rock.
I believe in Texas they don't have a pre-trial phase. You have to specifically ask for this in advance. Most departments here do not keep the radar units calibrated as often as the manufacturer recommends, and most officers are licensed by the FCC to operate a radio transmitting device such as that. Are you licensed?

Despite what you or others that share your opinions think, we do our best to be as professional as possible. We don't deliberately stop cars and make stuff up on people that aren't violating.
No. I do believe the vast majority of cops are honest, hard working people who are paid too little for the job they do and get far less recognition than they deserve. So I believe you are wrong for thinking that we believe cops make up stuff. Just because someone complains in a sane, level-headed way like the OP did, doesn't put him in that category (cop bashers) as you may think he is.

There are way too many people out there that really are speeding, to pick on someone that isn't. We occasionally make honest mistakes, but it's rare... and that's what trials are for.
I agree with you, that there are way too many people out there that really are speeding. However, the ones I see that are speeding don't seem to get caught. But I do see lots of cops stopping people that are travelling down well lit, wide, three lane in one direction roads going 50 in a 35 zone, when that same road, a short distance away once it goes down to an OLD, beaten up, potholed single lanes carried a 55 mPH zone.

Now, I know this is not the cops job. But the CITIES DO routinely re-set speed limits far too low on some roads, when the speed limit is much higher on roads that are far less safe. I believe that lately, many cities, when faced with budget shortfalls, are doing this on purpose to get more revenue from tickets.

And top it off with the fact that nearly ALL of us have a speed tolerance. My own is 15 over the legal limit. As was posted earlier, 1 over is illegal. If you think you're doing 13 over, instead of the 17 over my radar says, you still have no valid complaint if you get cited. You're still speeding either way !
Most of the cops here are told by superiors to give 10 MPH tolerance. But the cops I know also give 15 unless they feel they are "behind." Then it goes to 10.

I agree though, that there are lots of people that do drive bad.

-- Continued next post --
 
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marbol

Member
Continued from last message...

The intial appearance court is gonna offer you defective speedometer anyway. If you refuse that offer, I'm gonna make you look foolish at trial.
I don't understand. In Texas no one offers "defective speedometer" anyway. The going feeling seems to be that the tolerance should cover a defective speedometer.

By the way, in Texas, your car does NOT have to have a working speedometer. It WILL pass inspection even if the cars speedo doesn't work at all. I know this because I used to be a state inspector.

You are expected in Texas to know how fast you are going without one, and that you are also expected to NOT drive to fast for the prevailing conditions.

This is why some cops will (and I know some that have before) issue citations for going 25 in a 40 MPH zone. The reason is because the conditions were unsafe. The officer doesn't write the same citation (speed only) - but instead issues a citation that says "travelling at unsafe speed" - which is a more costly fine than a simple speeding ticket.

You were already given a warning. The warning was the white sign that said "Speed Limit 55". I don't give a rip if the road is empty, you're Mario Andretti, it's a sunny day, or you drive a brand new BMW 750.
[/QUOTE]

You are doing your job. I don't blame you. I do feel that if someone is driving a safe speed and going with the flow of traffic that they should not be ticketed though. Most cops around here use judgement, unless in a speed sting area.

By the way, I base my postings on tickets I got in Texas when I was much younger. I haven't had a ticket in many many years now. I have never had an accident in my life yet - knock on wood - but my wife has.

In fact, I was a bit pissed off that one day, I was working, and my wife was pregnant. She was near her due date. No one was home. She called me and said she felt pressure and that she might be giving birth. I told her to stay there and I'll come get her. But I worked a long way away, and she said she thought she could drive. So I told her I would meet her at the hospital.

She got a ticket on her way to the hospital. She was very very pregnant and 9 months along - and she looked it.

The officer stopped her for only 10MPH over the limit. She said she was obeying the limit. She also told the officer that she was on her way to the hospital delivery room - and he could follow her if he didn't believe her.

His response was that she should slow down. And he didn't believe she was driving herself - so he didn't believe she was on her way there. And that she should just pay the ticket.

I took that ticket to court- and called the supervisor of the cop and complained that he could have even offered to escort her.

Well, she did give birth that day, and I showed the birth papers to the judge on her court date. Guess what? She lost!

So - I don't think the system works - I think that people are now cold hearted and unfeeling.

So please excuse me if I'm a little biased and cynical.

To the OP, if you want some more info about speeding tickets, online, check out this site: http://www.dif-ff.org/6/speeding254.html
 

Indiana Filer

Senior Member
marbol said:
Continued from last message...

The officer stopped her for only 10MPH over the limit. She said she was obeying the limit. She also told the officer that she was on her way to the hospital delivery room - and he could follow her if he didn't believe her.

His response was that she should slow down. And he didn't believe she was driving herself - so he didn't believe she was on her way there. And that she should just pay the ticket.

I took that ticket to court- and called the supervisor of the cop and complained that he could have even offered to escort her.

Well, she did give birth that day, and I showed the birth papers to the judge on her court date. Guess what? She lost!
Wait right there. In the first sentence of this excerpt, you say that your wife was stopped for speeding 10 MPH over the limit. In the second sentence, you state that she said she wasn't. Which is is? Was she or was she not speeding?

Secondly, if she was in labor, she should have called an ambulance, a cab, or someone to drive her. One shouldn't drive while in active labor. That could be construed as reckless driving. I know when I was in labor, all I wanted to do was kill my husband and get that child OUT of my body.
:D
 

Curt581

Senior Member
Most of this was differences between states' court procedures, so we'll skip it.

marbol said:
Obviosly you are not from Texas. In Texas, a traffic case IS a criminal case. There is no difference. Traffic cases are not simple "infractions" here. So in a traffic case you are afforded all that a criminal case is afforded, including the right to a trial by jury, etc.
No, I'm not. Our traffic violations are mostly civil infractions. If you want a jury trial, you have to pay a small fee for it. Six person, $36, twelve person, $72. Not refundable whether you win or lose.
Ah! Here is where I *really* knew you were a cop. You assume already that someone is guilty. Then you go so far as to assert that someone "knows" it - when in fact, they might not be.
This is the section of your post I have a problem with. I'm not assuming anything... He admits speeding.

Go back to the OP's post # 12. He says:
I don't deny I was going over 70.
His major problems are... He doesn't want to do traffic school again, despite going for speeding twice in the past, both times for which he readily admits was speeding. He doesn't like that fact that the fine prices went up.

What more do you want?!
If a court feels that they have better things to do than "playing games with measly speeding tickets" then I'd suggest they stop having cops write tickets for them.
Great solution, but it won't work. Let's let people drive anyway they want. Let's stop all traffic enforcement.

Will you be joining the crews required to clean up all the bodies?
In fact, if you cared to research it, many juridictions rely on the monies generated by speeding tickets to fund quite a large portion of their budgets
Every police agency relies on citation revenue to one extent or another, to offset property tax levy. However, "generating revenue" is decidedly NOT the sole purpose of our existence.

Places like Kendalton TX, and New Rome, OH do exist, but are in the extreme minority. You hear about 'em so often because of media hoopla. The media needs to create sensationalism to fulfill it's mission... selling advertizing space. Selling soap.
You might like us to believe this is an isolated incident, but if it is, then why did the state of Texas have to make such a special law?
Do you think this is the only instance where law state legislatures have created a law to cover an isolated or over-stated incident?

For example, what about laws banning armor piercing ammunition, ostensibly to protect police officers, when NO OFFICER HAS EVER BEEN SHOT AT WITH, LET ALONE KILLED BY, AP AMMO?
Most departments here do not keep the radar units calibrated as often as the manufacturer recommends, and most officers are licensed by the FCC to operate a radio transmitting device such as that.
Keeping radar units calibrated is a budgetary concern. I can understand why they get lax, facing major cuts in just keeping cops on the street. Is it right? No, it's not.

I don't know where you're getting info on FCC licensing for individual radar operators, but that isn't true. At least, not anymore.

You do have to be certified in it's use. And yes, I am.
No. I do believe the vast majority of cops are honest, hard working people who are paid too little for the job they do and get far less recognition than they deserve. So I believe you are wrong for thinking that we believe cops make up stuff. Just because someone complains in a sane, level-headed way like the OP did, doesn't put him in that category (cop bashers) as you may think he is.
Thanks for your compliments, but I see too many posts here, and too many comments at work that make me think it IS true.

Go through the site, and find all the posts screaming "The cop LIED". You'll find most will say, "yeah, I was going X over, but he said I was going X over, so that means he LIED", inferring that means he wasn't speeding at all.
I agree with you, that there are way too many people out there that really are speeding. However, the ones I see that are speeding don't seem to get caught.
We do what we can. Obviously, we can't stop every single person going 1 over. Some people are going to get away with it for a while. But you don't read about those, because they don't post complaints. Eventually, they do get busted.
Now, I know this is not the cops job. But the CITIES DO routinely re-set speed limits far too low on some roads, when the speed limit is much higher on roads that are far less safe. I believe that lately, many cities, when faced with budget shortfalls, are doing this on purpose to get more revenue from tickets.
Would you rather they increase property tax levy or reassess properties just to cover basic services?

The reality is, citation revenue actually a very small part of a major city's projected budget. I'm not talking about "Wide Spot, TX population 50", I mean cities like El Paso, Houston, etc.
 

Curt581

Senior Member
marbol said:
You are doing your job. I don't blame you. I do feel that if someone is driving a safe speed and going with the flow of traffic that they should not be ticketed though.
Based on who's opinion? The cop who stopped them, or the person stopped?

If it's the latter, no one would ever receive a speeding ticket.
She got a ticket on her way to the hospital. She was very very pregnant and 9 months along - and she looked it.
I probably wouldn't have cited her. But I WOULD have called an ambulance for her. I have to agree with Indiana Filer. She shouldn't have tried to drive herself. What if she'd have been in an accident? I don't mean her fault by speeding, I mean any circumstances. It's just too much to risk
called the supervisor of the cop and complained that he could have even offered to escort her.
Cops don't do "police escorts" anymore. At least not anywhere I know. That's just asking for trouble. Major liability if something bad were to happen.
So - I don't think the system works - I think that people are now cold hearted and unfeeling.
The system does work, for the most part. Blame society and people looking for the big payday from a lawsuit. Lawyers and lawsuits have forced us to strictly adhere to the letter of the law. Much of our discretion has been taken away.

In this context, "coldhearted and unfeeling" is just another way to say "fair".
 

keith.e

Member
This is just a follow-up:

Seven months after getting my ticket, and three continuations later, my case was dismissed in Austin, TX, Travis County. In fact, out of the 12 people that were present, 10 cases were dismissed without trial.

I didn't go through and re-read the posts in this thread, but I addressed the judge afterwards and for my particular case, both the citing and clocking officer (who was in the chopper) would have had to have been present in order for my trial to have taken place. Chances were very much in my favor. I did prepare a case though. If you do go to court don't show up without any notes -- be sure to take notes on the day of the citation. Don't go in there empty handed.

Just goes to show you, showing up is more than half the battle. However, I did get nervous before my trial because there was a truck driver being tried for driving 74 in a 55 (work zone). He got picked apart, big time. He was absolutely clueless as to what to ask, and he kept saying things like "I was going with the flow of traffic." He also admitted to driving a truck with a broken speedometer, which was horrible for his case citing, "my contractor refused to get it fixed."

If you're pleading 'not guilty' don't contradict yourself by admitting guilt. It simply does not make sense. Geez.

Anyhow, thanks for the encouragement and discouragement alike. Everything was beneficial in its own way. If you're thinking of going to trial for a speeding ticket, remember that you're able to take defensive driving (I'm assuming that you haven't already exhausted that option) before the trial takes place. Meaning, if you're sitting there in court hoping that the officer won't show up, and he/she does, then you can opt right then and there to take defensive driving. I would have still taken it to trial myself, but this is just for those who are afraid go to trial in the first place. This applies to my county specifically, as I don't know the way it works elsewhere.

Good luck!
 

keith.e

Member
sukharev said:
Yahoo! Congrats and thanks for sharing the valuable info.
Not a problem. I've been wondering whether or not there was even a helicopter. That question has bugged me because I never saw it before/during the incident, and I haven't seen one afterwards. I often take a quick glance (like a blind spot check) to see if there are any helicopters while I drive on the highway when I've spotted officers and their prey in the emergency lane.

I remember the officer telling me that it was an "airplane" that clocked me and later finding out that he meant helicopter. But maybe there never was any helicopter. I guess I'll never know for sure.

What I do know is that I'm going to go the exact speed limit (or below) on the highways from now on. I always get where I need to go early anyhow, so there's no reason to try and go faster. One can't rely on ideal weather conditions or an officer's disgression because it's different to each individual. I'm a changed driver. :cool:
 
keith.e said:
Not a problem. I've been wondering whether or not there was even a helicopter. That question has bugged me because I never saw it before/during the incident, and I haven't seen one afterwards. I often take a quick glance (like a blind spot check) to see if there are any helicopters while I drive on the highway when I've spotted officers and their prey in the emergency lane.

I remember the officer telling me that it was an "airplane" that clocked me and later finding out that he meant helicopter. But maybe there never was any helicopter. I guess I'll never know for sure.

What I do know is that I'm going to go the exact speed limit (or below) on the highways from now on. I always get where I need to go early anyhow, so there's no reason to try and go faster. One can't rely on ideal weather conditions or an officer's disgression because it's different to each individual. I'm a changed driver. :cool:

I would challenge the distance part... did you see a pic of an airplane on the road? usually they will have the distance painted on the side of the road or through some marker. Distance= Velocity/Time or through substitution velocity= distance * time. so they had a stopwatch clocking you then the question becomes did they have 1 stopwatch on you and another on somebody else.. A human being in an airplane with a stopwatch has a reaction time which can throw those numbers off. Of course they could say that they used a forumla for reaction time but it still could be off they get your speed in meters per sec. then convert it to miles per hour. The laws of physics is hard to deny.....
 
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keith.e

Member
RedemptionMan said:
I would challenge the distance part... did you see a pic of an airplane on the road? usually they will have the distance painted on the side of the road or through some marker. Distance= Velocity/Time or through substitution velocity= distance * time. so they had a stopwatch clocking you then the question becomes did they have 1 stopwatch on you and another on somebody else.. A human being in an airplane with a stopwatch has a reaction time which can throw those numbers off. Of course they could say that they used a forumla for reaction time but it still could be off they get your speed in meters per sec. then convert it to miles per hour. The laws of physics is hard to deny.....
It's a moot point now since my case was dismissed, but at the time I hadn't heard of being clocked from a helicopter. I never thought to check for any markers. That's interesting and certainly could have been helpful at my would-be trial. Thanks for your input.
 
This wont be that useful to you now that its over with but here is a heads up anyways.

Texas is one of the few thats where it is not illegal in and of itself to drive over the speed limit.

§ 545.351. MAXIMUM SPEED REQUIREMENT. (a) An operator
may not drive at a speed greater than is reasonable and prudent
under the circumstances then existing.
http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/TN/content/htm/tn.007.00.000545.00.htm#545.351.00

Which means if it is reasonable and prudent to do so you can drive over the speed limit.

By the same token if the driving conditions arent good you could still be ticketed for driving a certain speed under the limit.

Speed limits in Texas are not the law, they are only used as evidence in court against you.

§ 545.352. PRIMA FACIE SPEED LIMITS. (a) A speed in
excess of the limits established by Subsection (b) or under another
provision of this subchapter is prima facie evidence that the speed
is not reasonable and prudent and that the speed is unlawful.
 

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