How can this happen?

[Noelle09]

This pertains to a case in CA.

My boyfriend has two minor children ages 6 and 10. Since the separation in August the divorce was amicable and the mother moved into the grandmother’s (as agreed by all adult parties) to live for free until such time as she could afford to set up permanent residence. The father was to remain in the family home and take on all payments and expenses alone. Both are professionals (police officer and a teacher) and make very amounts of money.

The family has lived in the city where the father works for over ten years and the mother commutes to work in a nearby city (20 min drive). As a matter of convenience, the children attend her school. When the children were younger, the father adjusted his schedule to be the “stay-at-home-dad” and was the caregiver for the children while the mother was at work and when she got home, would leave for a 5:00pm – 3:00am shift and then sleep for four hours until she left for work at 7:30am. As the children began primary school full time, his schedule changed to the father working days and picking the children up from school (despite the fact that the mother would be driving home herself within an hour and a half).

Upon moving into the grandmothers residence, the parents agreed to and maintained a schedule of the father having the children Saturday night and 5:00pm thru Tuesday night at 5:00pm. In late November, the mother retained an attorney and immediately moved back into the family home. The children, who had become accustomed to the schedule and the parents’ divorce, became confused and thought things were back to normal. The parents maintained “separation” while living together; mom lived at one side of the house, and father at the other (typical of the last 5 years of the marriage) and the “custody” of the children remained the same with the dad taking care of, entertaining the children, and providing transport for the children to and from school.

On April 1st, both parties moved into new homes (the mother “decided” that the family home would be foreclosed on) and the “custody” schedule continued. The mother refused to work through mediation and refused all attempts at a “four-way” discussion regarding a temporary custody schedule. However, the father began making voluntary child support payments based on the 47%/53% split that had been in effect for 8 months. The mother wants custody of the children and for the father to have “every other weekend” visits and for child support to reflect that.

Today at court, the judge entered the court room saying he was inclined to leave the schedule as it was for now pending a June hearing. The attorney for the mother raised hell and said it was detrimental to the children and too complicated to adhere to. The judge “asked” the attorney if he would reconsider and he replied, “NO!” the judge the changed the custody to change to the children coming to their dads from 5:00pm Saturday to 9:00 Sunday and the custody went from 47% to the father down to 38% in one fell swoop. The judge also warned the dad to “prepare himself” for the fact that come June, it would go down further to 30% and every other weekend.

As she had four months to save up her entire paychecks and was able to hire an attorney while the father was paying the home mortgage and car payments alone where he was accustomed to a second income, he cannot afford an attorney and is struggling month to month. The family savings went to pay off the mother’s car and shared credit cards (the father took that initiative to “help” his ex out with her knowledge) before this all went bad.

So after all of that back ground, my question; is there an appeal for temporary custody, or does he wait and appeal in June after the final hearing that the judge warned him about? Is it an “every six months we go back”, or can the hearing(s) be sooner. He only wants what is fair, 50/50, and is not concerned with the child support. He just wants his boys. Both parents are clean, sober, and loving people with no health or safety concerns from either party. How can this possibly be fair and in the best interest of the children?

Maybe I am just ranting, but can someone provide insight as to why things would be found this way? How do we get the kids back?

PS. I know that I have zero to do with this case and stay out of it in every way from not talking to the mother to not going to court. I am very complimentary about the mother when talking to the children as is the father, despite the fact that she does not do the same, and that the children often comment on how much their mommy/grandma/mom's boyfriend hates their dad and me.

 

[Isis1]

"we" don't get the kids back. i strongly advise you to edit that part.

i could see this happening if dad did not speak up. he allowed the attorney to bully him. this is often what happens when one party doesn't have an attorney and does not know how to speak up for themselves.

then, you are a third party and are not privy to ALL the exact information. you are also considered biased, in a legal sense. so the information you may be seeking, would not reflect correctly to help dad.

 

[Noelle09]

That is all fair, and your "we" comment is exactly why I added my PS. The father and I have been friends for a while and dating since October(during the time(s) they continued living together, the mother was also dating [it was discussed and agreed upon by both parties; the decision to separate happened months before she moved out] as well at the same time and she is still dating the same man).

My relationship with the children is a shock to even me, and they attempt to call me "Mommy" all the time (I dissuade them and change the subject to their mommy and talk about how wonderful she is). We knew the children and I would get along, but the attachment at this point shocked us both, especially with the oldest.

The father was/is sitting beside me while typing the post, and while I am writing it, it is essentially being dictated. He is an emotional wreck and crying at the (perceived?) injustice, and so I am typing for him.

He is as far as one can get from a person that allows himself to be bullied. Not even his chief would try that today (long story and not relevant to this case.) He repeatedly tried to argue and talk while in court, and the judge silenced him every time to the point of cutting him off. The JUDGE was the one that was bullied (the father's EXACT response to your post) and changed his ruling only after the attorney disagreed.

With that in mind, do you, or any one else, have any input?

 

[LdiJ]

This pertains to a case in CA.

The father was to remain in the family home and take on all payments and expenses alone. Both are professionals (police officer and a teacher) and make very amounts of money.

Ok, you establish here that dad could afford to do this.

The family has lived in the city where the father works for over ten years and the mother commutes to work in a nearby city (20 min drive). As a matter of convenience, the children attend her school.

That's very normal.

When the children were younger, the father adjusted his schedule to be the “stay-at-home-dad” and was the caregiver for the children while the mother was at work and when she got home, would leave for a 5:00pm – 3:00am shift and then sleep for four hours until she left for work at 7:30am.

That's not dad being a stay at home dad, that's the parents working opposite schedules so that daycare wasn't necessary.

As the children began primary school full time, his schedule changed to the father working days and picking the children up from school (despite the fact that the mother would be driving home herself within an hour and a half).

And...how is that relevant to anything?

Upon moving into the grandmothers residence, the parents agreed to and maintained a schedule of the father having the children Saturday night and 5:00pm thru Tuesday night at 5:00pm.

Ok....

In late November, the mother retained an attorney and immediately moved back into the family home. The children, who had become accustomed to the schedule and the parents’ divorce, became confused and thought things were back to normal. The parents maintained “separation” while living together; mom lived at one side of the house, and father at the other (typical of the last 5 years of the marriage) and the “custody” of the children remained the same with the dad taking care of, entertaining the children, and providing transport for the children to and from school.

Ok...her attorney probably advised her to do that. I am not sure why.

On April 1st, both parties moved into new homes (the mother “decided” that the family home would be foreclosed on) and the “custody” schedule continued. The mother refused to work through mediation and refused all attempts at a “four-way” discussion regarding a temporary custody schedule. However, the father began making voluntary child support payments based on the 47%/53% split that had been in effect for 8 months. The mother wants custody of the children and for the father to have “every other weekend” visits and for child support to reflect that.

How could mom have decided that the house would be foreclosed upon if dad was handling it by himself for the first 8 months of their separation? Obviously it was a mutual decision.

Today at court, the judge entered the court room saying he was inclined to leave the schedule as it was for now pending a June hearing. The attorney for the mother raised hell and said it was detrimental to the children and too complicated to adhere to. The judge “asked” the attorney if he would reconsider and he replied, “NO!” the judge the changed the custody to change to the children coming to their dads from 5:00pm Saturday to 9:00 Sunday and the custody went from 47% to the father down to 38% in one fell swoop. The judge also warned the dad to “prepare himself” for the fact that come June, it would go down further to 30% and every other weekend.

Obviously the judge had a reason for that. I wasn't there, so I have no idea what that reason was.

As she had four months to save up her entire paychecks and was able to hire an attorney while the father was paying the home mortgage and car payments alone where he was accustomed to a second income, he cannot afford an attorney and is struggling month to month. The family savings went to pay off the mother’s car and shared credit cards (the father took that initiative to “help” his ex out with her knowledge) before this all went bad.

Paying off marital debt with marital savings is a very normal way to handle things in a divorce. He helped himself just as much as he helped her.

So after all of that back ground, my question; is there an appeal for temporary custody, or does he wait and appeal in June after the final hearing that the judge warned him about? Is it an “every six months we go back”, or can the hearing(s) be sooner. He only wants what is fair, 50/50, and is not concerned with the child support. He just wants his boys. Both parents are clean, sober, and loving people with no health or safety concerns from either party. How can this possibly be fair and in the best interest of the children?

Temporary orders generally cannot be appealed. Final orders can be appealed, however the judge would have had to make an error of law for an appeal to be successful.

Maybe I am just ranting, but can someone provide insight as to why things would be found this way? How do we get the kids back?

You are dating a man who is still married. There is absolutely no "we" of any kind where his children are concerned, and never will be. In fact, the whole "we" bit may very well be part of the problem.

PS. I know that I have zero to do with this case and stay out of it in every way from not talking to the mother to not going to court. I am very complimentary about the mother when talking to the children as is the father, despite the fact that the opposite is true.

You have given not the slightest fact here to indicate that there is anything less than exemplary regarding the mother. However, you have given some pretty decent indication that dad has handled things quite poorly. The children shouldn't have even met you at this point.

 

[sipa]

This pertains to a case in CA.

My boyfriend has two minor children ages 6 and 10. Since the separation in August the divorce was amicable and the mother moved into the grandmother’s (as agreed by all adult parties) to live for free until such time as she could afford to set up permanent residence. The father was to remain in the family home and take on all payments and expenses alone. Both are professionals (police officer and a teacher) and make very amounts of money.

The family has lived in the city where the father works for over ten years and the mother commutes to work in a nearby city (20 min drive). As a matter of convenience, the children attend her school. When the children were younger, the father adjusted his schedule to be the “stay-at-home-dad” and was the caregiver for the children while the mother was at work and when she got home, would leave for a 5:00pm – 3:00am shift and then sleep for four hours until she left for work at 7:30am. As the children began primary school full time, his schedule changed to the father working days and picking the children up from school (despite the fact that the mother would be driving home herself within an hour and a half).

Upon moving into the grandmothers residence, the parents agreed to and maintained a schedule of the father having the children Saturday night and 5:00pm thru Tuesday night at 5:00pm. In late November, the mother retained an attorney and immediately moved back into the family home. The children, who had become accustomed to the schedule and the parents’ divorce, became confused and thought things were back to normal. The parents maintained “separation” while living together; mom lived at one side of the house, and father at the other (typical of the last 5 years of the marriage) and the “custody” of the children remained the same with the dad taking care of, entertaining the children, and providing transport for the children to and from school.

On April 1st, both parties moved into new homes (the mother “decided” that the family home would be foreclosed on) and the “custody” schedule continued. The mother refused to work through mediation and refused all attempts at a “four-way” discussion regarding a temporary custody schedule. However, the father began making voluntary child support payments based on the 47%/53% split that had been in effect for 8 months. The mother wants custody of the children and for the father to have “every other weekend” visits and for child support to reflect that.
Today at court, the judge entered the court room saying he was inclined to leave the schedule as it was for now pending a June hearing. The attorney for the mother raised hell and said it was detrimental to the children and too complicated to adhere to. The judge “asked” the attorney if he would reconsider and he replied, “NO!” the judge the changed the custody to change to the children coming to their dads from 5:00pm Saturday to 9:00 Sunday and the custody went from 47% to the father down to 38% in one fell swoop. The judge also warned the dad to “prepare himself” for the fact that come June, it would go down further to 30% and every other weekend.

As she had four months to save up her entire paychecks and was able to hire an attorney while the father was paying the home mortgage and car payments alone where he was accustomed to a second income, he cannot afford an attorney and is struggling month to month. The family savings went to pay off the mother’s car and shared credit cards (the father took that initiative to “help” his ex out with her knowledge) before this all went bad.

So after all of that back ground, my question; is there an appeal for temporary custody, or does he wait and appeal in June after the final hearing that the judge warned him about? Is it an “every six months we go back”, or can the hearing(s) be sooner. He only wants what is fair, 50/50, and is not concerned with the child support. He just wants his boys. Both parents are clean, sober, and loving people with no health or safety concerns from either party. How can this possibly be fair and in the best interest of the children?

Maybe I am just ranting, but can someone provide insight as to why things would be found this way? How do we get the kids back?

PS. I know that I have zero to do with this case and stay out of it in every way from not talking to the mother to not going to court. I am very complimentary about the mother when talking to the children as is the father, despite the fact that she does not do the same, and that the children often comment on how much their mommy/grandma/mom's boyfriend hates their dad and me.

The above states a 4 way discussion, that means Dad, Mom, her attorney and a mediator?

Dad needs an attorney.
My x husband and I have a split schedule both in the same school district, he has Saturday 6 to Tuesday am drop off for bus. He tried to modify the order last Jan to lower his time, long story and purely selfish request on his part, I truly believe had I not had an attorney and had he filled his paperwork out correctly the outcome would be different.

Local attorney's know the judges temperments and likes and dislikes, although it can be expensive and the expense can be stressful, attorney representation, removes the emotion, and presents a case.

The expense can be stressful indeed, but the undo stress that BF has right now may be eleviated some. When I handed off my case and when my new husband handed off his case as recently as Monday it felt like a weight was off our shoulders. I knew as he does that it is in the hands of a professional that is on OUR side.

Have Dad get an attorney let the attorney present the case for him the outcome may be better.

 

[Noelle09]

Ok, you establish here that dad could afford to do this.

He could while not paying child support. The original agreement was no support as he would maintain the family residence and then pay her half of the equity once he was able to re-finance or their was ANY equity and they could sell without owing money which neither had at the time. At that time, they would revisit support if it was warranted.

The parents make between $6,000 and $7,000 gross each. The house payment was $3,600 a month and typical rent for a comparable home is $2,000. Both now rent for similar amounts. He agreed to help save both of their finances and credit and both agreed. Not for any other reason.

That's very normal.

I know. Nothing more than back ground.

That's not dad being a stay at home dad, that's the parents working opposite schedules so that daycare wasn't necessary.

Again, I know. Showing that he was a VERY big part of the children's lives. More actual hours of raising the children that the mom.

And...how is that relevant to anything?

Again, just background to show that the father was and still is a very big part of the children's lives and adjusted his schedule to afford every free minute of his day to his children. Nothing more.

Ok....

Showing a "status quo" that both parties agreed to and maintained for many months up to today.

Ok...her attorney probably advised her to do that. I am not sure why.

At the time the attorney advised her that SHE had abandoned the home, and it would look favorable to the court if she moved back in (what she told the father as her reasoning when asked after she moved back)

How could mom have decided that the house would be foreclosed upon if dad was handling it by himself for the first 8 months of their separation? Obviously it was a mutual decision.

Not at all a mutual decision. He can/could not afford the home with the schedule/support she wants. He even seeked advice form 4 different lenders and 2 CPA's who all said that if things went her way, he could not do it.

He did it on his own for the months of legal separation, but now will not be able to. He still could if the arrangement was what they had agreed on.

Obviously the judge had a reason for that. I wasn't there, so I have no idea what that reason was.

That is what we are wondering. Yes I said we. Sorry, we are both wondering...

Paying off marital debt with marital savings is a very normal way to handle things in a divorce. He helped himself just as much as he helped her.

It did at the time, but today he is left with a $500 a month car payment and her with none and two cars of equal value. Yes, that will fall under the property division at a later time, but for everyday life, that is a HUGE cost difference. When they were married it was not an extravagance, now it is and has a negative equity. It sucks, I know. She did not want to take the car with payments, and opted to take the one free and clear. Smart. He gave her the choice.

As the divorce was uncontested (they even went down and bought paperwork to do it on their own, together) at the time he saw no need to hire an attorney. And after she moved back, he was still trying to find a way to keep the home, so was making payments alone while she refused to help with mortgage, utilities, or any other household needs. She was saving while he was trying to do the right thing to help them both.

Temporary orders generally cannot be appealed. Final orders can be appealed, however the judge would have had to make an error of law for an appeal to be successful.

Thank you, that is the type of comment he was looking for.

You are dating a man who is still married. There is absolutely no "we" of any kind where his children are concerned, and never will be. In fact, the whole "we" bit may very well be part of the problem.

There is a lot of "we". First of all, I want to know. I love this man and his children and want to see them all happy and thriving. There is and will be a "we" in every sense of the word when it comes to my family. I recognise my limits when it comes to the law, and back off and let him fight, but that is not how any of our hearts think or feel.

You have given not the slightest fact here to indicate that there is anything less than exemplary regarding the mother. However, you have given some pretty decent indication that dad has handled things quite poorly. The children shouldn't have even met you at this point.

I am curious what is less than exemplary in anything the father has done? I am not saying the mother is in any way a bad parent. Her youngest adores her and she has done nothing that would ever make her an unfit mother. Nowhere did I say that. She does deserve equal time with her children.

The children and I have only known each other for two months. We only introduced me as dad friend, and nothing more until they were living in separate residences and well after they knew and were staying with their mom's boyfriend. I do not stay the night and have my own home. It is the children who are directing the pace at which we proceed with the relationship, and they who choose to say "I love you" and "Will you marry dad when this divorce is done" not us. The father got her permission to introduce me to the children weeks after they knew mom's boyfriend with out the same courtesy.

 

[Noelle09]

The above states a 4 way discussion, that means Dad, Mom, her attorney and a mediator?

Dad needs an attorney.
My x husband and I have a split schedule both in the same school district, he has Saturday 6 to Tuesday am drop off for bus. He tried to modify the order last Jan to lower his time, long story and purely selfish request on his part, I truly believe had I not had an attorney and had he filled his paperwork out correctly the outcome would be different.

Local attorney's know the judges temperments and likes and dislikes, although it can be expensive and the expense can be stressful, attorney representation, removes the emotion, and presents a case.

The expense can be stressful indeed, but the undo stress that BF has right now may be eleviated some. When I handed off my case and when my new husband handed off his case as recently as Monday it felt like a weight was off our shoulders. I knew as he does that it is in the hands of a professional that is on OUR side.

Have Dad get an attorney let the attorney present the case for him the outcome may be better.

Sorry about the 4-way comment. It should have read 3-way.

Thank you for the advice. I think he is leaning that way himself, but finances are going to be the kicker.

Again thank you for the constructive advice.

 

[Noelle09]

I am curious. At what point would you consider significant others and step-children family? We have found it impossible to "mind our own business" when it comes to one another's lives. I am, and intend to stay, very much involved, and to be perfectly frank, I think any person who is involved in a loving relationship and can maintain a distance from the others lives needs to re-think the definition of a loving relationship.

I do not stay the night when the children are there, and will not until this is over. We do this out of respect to the mother and the failed marriage. I would say that is was not to confuse the children (and that was the other half of the motive at first) but at this point they are disappointed when I go home. With that said, we have every intention of maintaining this relationship and making this a "legal" family when that time comes. Until then I can not and will not attempt to keep my heart at a distance. Legally I recognise my lack of any rights and refuse to over step them. I have not and will not do so.

I love these boys but am perfectly aware that they have a loving mother. I think that has been stated repeatedly. I have no interest in trying to take her place. I can also repeat that again if needed. I just want these boys and their father to be happy and thriving (and while of less importance to me, their mother deserves that as well). Their happiness IS my business. If I need to put it in selfish terms for it to sound believable to you, then here you go: when those who I care for are unhappy, I am unhappy. Therefore it is my best interest to make sure they are happy as well.

There are multiple side to every story, and shades of gray within those. I know that the father has taken responsibility for any and every part of this failed marriage. I can only hope that the same is true in the reverse. Both sides agreed to the split and all terms. Our relationship has nothing to do with it either just as the mother's relationship with her boyfriend has no bearing. Fortunately, this post has zero to do with the reasons for the marriages failure, or finances. Child support is not the issue and has been paid voluntarily prior to a court order.The post is in regard to the custody and a desire to understand why, if it can be assumed or explained, the court would reduce custody and promise to reduce it further from a long, established agreement with out obvious cause.

 

[LdiJ]

I am curious. At what point would you consider significant others and step-children family? We have found it impossible to "mind our own business" when it comes to one another's lives. I am, and intend to stay, very much involved, and to be perfectly frank, I think any person who is involved in a loving relationship and can maintain a distance from the others lives needs to re-think the definition of a loving relationship.

I do not stay the night when the children are there, and will not until this is over. We do this out of respect to the mother and the failed marriage. I would say that is was not to confuse the children (and that was the other half of the motive at first) but at this point they are disappointed when I go home. With that said, we have every intention of maintaining this relationship and making this a "legal" family when that time comes. Until then I can not and will not attempt to keep my heart at a distance. Legally I recognise my lack of any rights and refuse to over step them. I have not and will not do so.

I love these boys but am perfectly aware that they have a loving mother. I think that has been stated repeatedly. I have no interest in trying to take her place. I can also repeat that again if needed. I just want these boys and their father to be happy and thriving (and while of less importance to me, their mother deserves that as well). Their happiness IS my business. If I need to put it in selfish terms for it to sound believable to you, then here you go: when those who I care for are unhappy, I am unhappy. Therefore it is my best interest to make sure they are happy as well.

There are multiple side to every story, and shades of gray within those. I know that the father has taken responsibility for any and every part of this failed marriage. I can only hope that the same is true in the reverse. Both sides agreed to the split and all terms. Our relationship has nothing to do with it either just as the mother's relationship with her boyfriend has no bearing. Fortunately, this post has zero to do with the reasons for the marriages failure, or finances. Child support is not the issue and has been paid voluntarily prior to a court order.The post is in regard to the custody and a desire to understand why, if it can be assumed or explained, the court would reduce custody and promise to reduce it further from a long, established agreement with out obvious cause.

It would be nice if someone here could answer that question, but we cannot. We weren't there.

All we can tell you is that a judge has the authority to make a decision regarding the custody and timeshare of children, and the judge makes the decision based on what the judge believes is in the children's best interest.

A best interest decision is rarely appealable by itself because of that. A judge usually has to have made an error of law, or made a decision that is so obviously (from a legal standpoint) NOT in the best interest of the children (abuse of discretion) for a decision to be overturned on appeal.

 

[stealth2]

IF ever there was a situation where the PARENT needs to create their own account and post their own questions, this is it. DAD needs to be here asking for advice on his situation. Not his mistress.

Because that, Noelle, is what you are. His mistress. (And that is a much nicer characterization than you will get from most anyone else here.) You are in an adulterous affair with a married man. (Yes, I would tell her lover the same thing, he if he were posting here.) This is not any of your business. You need to back way off and leave it to Mom and Dad to sort out.

That the children are confused enough to want to call you Mommy speaks volumes. They don't get what's going on and are trying to make sense of it. So what if Mom is doing the same? At least they could have one good parent who puts the kids before his/her sex life. Too bad they don't have one. Both Mom and Dad are showing really poor judgment.