Hypocrisy of cops is difficult to compehend

[HighwayMan]

But, yes, some officers register their vehicles as "confidential"...

Maybe out there but that's not possible anywhere around this part of the country. A personal vehicle is just that.

 

[CdwJava]

Maybe out there but that's not possible anywhere around this part of the country. A personal vehicle is just that.

As the OP appears to be from CA I was referring to CA practices. I cannot comment on the laws and practices in most states other than CA.

 

[davew128]

Professional courtesy was shown to an officer in San Diego not too long ago after he smashed his vehicle into a tree and some of the officers who did so are facing administrative and criminal proceedings as a result.

 

[CdwJava]

Professional courtesy was shown to an officer in San Diego not too long ago after he smashed his vehicle into a tree and some of the officers who did so are facing administrative and criminal proceedings as a result.

Yep.

Best bet would have been to call another agency to investigate and NOT hide it.

 

[HighwayMan]

"Courtesy" for a simple traffic offense is one thing, but these days no one is going to be looking to risk their job to cover for an idiot who is committing a crime.

 

[witzeroni]

No one denies that the police (and people in most any profession) give preferencial treatment when they can to their peers, family or friends. It's not simply the police.
Some dishostest cops actually do deny the existence of a 'professional courtesy'. It's the height of hypocrisy that a cop would let a fellow cop skate while busting a non-cop. It's my hypothesis that 9 out of 10 cops would not arrest a fellow cop for dui when he could if there is not an accident involved.

My hypotheses is based on both what I have observed and statistics. Of the 13 Chicago cops arrested for dui, in article I referenced 6 where out of state. If the investigator knew anything about statistics she should have said: 'Woh, something is definitely wrong here, how could almost half of the times a cop is arrested for dui, it happens out of state (assumption here is an out of state cop less likely to give a free pass)'. For everybody else, that number is about 2 percent. Something definitely reeks here.

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=4862057#.UdIx8_msiSq
Of the off-duty cops who killed 7 people in the couple of years, do you think any one of them were ever arrested before for dui? Nope. I would be willing to bet they were pulled over, but then sent on their merry way, making them feel more invincible, and only to kill later. Look at how they even tried to protect a fellow officer who beat the tar out of a lady for not giving him more beer. You'd think the cops would be against that kind of action, even if the perp. is a fellow cop. Apparently not, and that is very sad.

 

[CdwJava]

Some dishostest cops actually do deny the existence of a 'professional courtesy'.

That's because they're ... er ... dishonest.

It's the height of hypocrisy that a cop would let a fellow cop skate while busting a non-cop.

Only if the officer cutting the break to a fellow cop wouldn't cut anyone a break ... ever. I dont know a single officer who has never let someone slide for some reason. The highest citation ration I know of was about 85%, the lowest, about 10%. Since it is highly unlikely that these 85% officers let ONLY family and friends go, they also cut breaks to members of the public. Had these officers stated that they NEVER cut someone a break and then cut an officer a break, THAT would be hypocrisy. While I have never met anyone who has admitted to NEVER giving someone a break or willing to do so, I suppose it is possible that some officer somewhere is dumb enough to speak in such absolutes such that he gets himself jammed up by his own words.

It's my hypothesis that 9 out of 10 cops would not arrest a fellow cop for dui when he could if there is not an accident involved.

And I'd ask for you to objectively support that hypothesis, because I contend otherwise ... since I KNOW of officers caught for DUI and they have all been investigated both by a responsible agency and their own agency as part of an internal affairs matter.

Since your hypothesis is objectively unable to be proven, I suggest it is a belief and not a hypothesis.

My hypotheses is based on both what I have observed and statistics. Of the 13 Chicago cops arrested for dui, in article I referenced 6 where out of state. If the investigator knew anything about statistics she should have said: 'Woh, something is definitely wrong here, how could almost half of the times a cop is arrested for dui, it happens out of state (assumption here is an out of state cop less likely to give a free pass)'. For everybody else, that number is about 2 percent. Something definitely reeks here.

First, the sample is too small to be statistically valid.

Second, there is no evidence presented in the article to explain why more IL officers were not busted. The explanations could be that IL officers are less inclined to drive impaired. Or, it could be that they ALL drive impaired and they they almost always get a free pass by their fellows. Or, it could be somewhere in the middle and a phenomenon with that one department and none other.

You cannot support a hypothesis on such scant evidence.

Look at how they even tried to protect a fellow officer who beat the tar out of a lady for not giving him more beer. You'd think the cops would be against that kind of action, even if the perp. is a fellow cop. Apparently not, and that is very sad.

And any officer that might do such a thing as to cover up the criminal act of a peer deserves to - at least - lose his job. Isolated stories are not "proof" of anything endemic nor systemic malfeasance. Fortunately, criminal activities by law enforcement in The USA are still noteworthy enough to make national headlines when they are uncovered. I fear the day that such malfeasance might be so common place that it no longer is newsworthy.

As a note, there are entire websites BY the police and FOR the police that highlight law enforcement mistakes and malfeasance for the sole purpose of educating officers on what to do and how to do it RIGHT. For the most part, the police do not want to work with bad officers, and do not tolerate malfeasance - especially when it is criminal. Yes, there are isolated pockets of deviance where the agency has permitted such actions to grow to the point of some activity becoming a systemic problem. But, these are hardly representative of police as a whole. Most malfeasance is identified and ferreted out by those who are in the CJ system and not by way of public complaint. we can always do better, but, even police officers have rights and you cannot generally terminate or even prosecute ANYONE on unsubstantiated rumor, and due process is afforded even to police officers. This is why I recommend that people make a complaint even if they think it will come to nothing. No complaint equals no problem. The agency cannot be expected to know something that no one tells them.

 

[witzeroni]

'Since your hypothesis is objectively unable to be proven, I suggest it is a belief and not a hypothesis.'
I believe it is a hypothesis since it is an 'educated guess' and perhaps could be proven if I can get more data.

'First, the sample is too small to be statistically valid.'
I do, in most part, agree with you here. I would very much like to find much more data, perhaps you are privy to some? I am looking for national data. Number of cops and non-cops arrested for dui. Number of deaths caused by cops and non-cops via dui. Number and percentage of cops and non-cops arrested for dui when no accident is involved. Number of previous arrests of cops and and non-cops involved in a fatal dui... etc., etc.

'Fortunately, criminal activities by law enforcement in The USA are still noteworthy enough to make national headlines when they are uncovered.' Not sure how many non-locals know about all the shinanigans that goes on by Chicago cops, or I think there would be more of an outcry at the national level. I think unless an illegal activity is videotaped or recorded, the cover up goes on. 7 deaths caused by off duty Chicago cops in the last couple of years, and very little outcry about this.

I think they made a movie on Serpico because he was a rarity among policemen, not the norm.

This article is about a town very close to mine. 13 cops inflated dui numbers so they could get more grant money, and thus more overtime money, debunking the myth that dui's don't make officers money. The police do not mention the names of their fellow officers involved in the scheme for some odd reason.
http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20130416/news/704169840/print/

 

[CdwJava]

'Since your hypothesis is objectively unable to be proven, I suggest it is a belief and not a hypothesis.'
I believe it is a hypothesis since it is an 'educated guess' and perhaps could be proven if I can get more data.

Hardly an "educated guess."

'First, the sample is too small to be statistically valid.'
I do, in most part, agree with you here. I would very much like to find much more data, perhaps you are privy to some? I am looking for national data. Number of cops and non-cops arrested for dui. Number of deaths caused by cops and non-cops via dui. Number and percentage of cops and non-cops arrested for dui when no accident is involved. Number of previous arrests of cops and and non-cops involved in a fatal dui... etc., etc.

That kind of breakdown would be largely unavailable as arrest data does not tend to contain this information, and NON arrests are not typically documented. Besides, those numbers would - in and of themselves - be meaningless as any number of other variables might account for the results. Percentages and numbers that you ask are subject to too many questions and interpretations as to what they mean. It would take a heck of a research study to take on even a portion of that data, and unless you've got a grant to put it together and a couple of years to spend ferreting out the data this will remain merely a curiosity without any real, hard objective data.

Not sure how many non-locals know about all the shinanigans that goes on by Chicago cops,

They make national news in police periodicals and websites, at least. When CPD stopped making gang affiliation a disqualifier for employment, it made news ... when fights broke out in briefing between the Folk and the People, it made news ... graft and corruption, it made news. As it should. But, Chicago is not at toe forefront of policing theory, though they are not without their innovations and positive attributes as an organization, and individually.

I think they made a movie on Serpico because he was a rarity among policemen, not the norm.

He was also of a different age in a different era of policing. Policing 40 years ago was a very different animal, and a lot has changed for the better since then. They have written entire books on the transition of policing over the last 50 years, and my Masters Thesis incorporated a good deal of these theories.

This article is about a town very close to mine. 13 cops inflated dui numbers so they could get more grant money, and thus more overtime money, debunking the myth that dui's don't make officers money. The police do not mention the names of their fellow officers involved in the scheme for some odd reason.

The names are not mentioned, likely because the matter is also an internal personnel investigation and the names are unable to be released by law (at least that is the case out here, and i suspect even in IL).

And I can't speak to grant practices in your state. Out here the numbers help to some degree, but there is no great incentive to inflate the numbers ... and how you'd get away with inflating something that can be proven by arrest records is beyond me. Like I said, I'd get paid the same if I drove the car around for a few hours and made NO arrests or issued NO citations. I don't get paid a bonus per arrest or cite. While the availability of the grant money allows an officer to work that overtime, there is no requirement that he make an arrest or cite.

Overtime means money in the pocket of officers. If they reported activity such as hours worked or arrests not made, it was likely to justify the extra pay not that it would make them more eligible for future grants. In other words, it seems that at least some of those officers might have committed theft and should be terminated and/or prosecuted. Given the hint in the story that people were following the lead of supervisors, it could be that the involved officers were told to put some time on their sheets to reflect that DUI overtime, and maybe shuffled cites and arrests around to make it appear that those officers had done something. Keep in mind that news stories rarely have all the details or info.

 

[betachains]

"Courtesy" for a simple traffic offense is one thing, but these days no one is going to be looking to risk their job to cover for an idiot who is committing a crime."


True. A DUI is not (mostly) going to skate these days regardless of their job.

I don't why traffic violators should get off because of their professional status.

 

[witzeroni]

"Courtesy" for a simple traffic offense is one thing, but these days no one is going to be looking to risk their job to cover for an idiot who is committing a crime."

I've never heard of any cop who lost their job from giving a fellow cop a pass instead of arresting him for dui, do you java? Most would give the pass knowing arresting another officer will make him an enemy of other police members. Look at the hyperlinks I sent, one cop was too afraid to give a fellow cop a dui, because he was fearful of being hated by the others (this is all on tape). If cops try to cover up the crime of an off-duty cop who beats the tar out of a lady for not giving him more beer, do you really think they are fearful of not arresting a fellow cop for dui?

If you know any cops, just ask them. Most will flat out tell you about the 'professional courtesy' mentality of the boys in blue. Think of the cops you know, do you truly think they entered the force to 'serve and protect their fellow man'.

It's just painful for me to read the sad stories of people being arrested for dui when no accident is involved and what they have to go thru to get their life back in order (sometimes being convicted of manslaughter gives less of a punishment after outrageous fees, revokation of license, etc. is concerned). I don't condone driving under the influence, however it bothers me that cops can dish out dui's for the hoi polloi while rarely doing the same for fellow officers unless. Police should have to play by the same set of rules as everybody else.

 

[CdwJava]

I've never heard of any cop who lost their job from giving a fellow cop a pass instead of arresting him for dui, do you java?

Firsthand? No. Anecdotally, yes.

I HAVE known officers disciplined and given time off for failing to follow procedure in those instances, yes.

Most would give the pass knowing arresting another officer will make him an enemy of other police members.

That might be the case where you are, but if you were in a place where the officers took their profession and their oaths seriously, they would know that the idiot who screwed up is the guy that should take the blame, not the officer who did his or her job.

Look at the hyperlinks I sent, one cop was too afraid to give a fellow cop a dui, because he was fearful of being hated by the others (this is all on tape). If cops try to cover up the crime of an off-duty cop who beats the tar out of a lady for not giving him more beer, do you really think they are fearful of not arresting a fellow cop for dui?

Again, you cite anecdotal incidents as evidence of a wider problem. If there is such a vast conspiracy behing the badge, I haven't seen it and I'm on the inside. Such concerns and actions do exist - I won't deny it. But, they are hardly systemic and tend to be isolated into the culture of a particular agency. The culture of that agency can often be just as strong as the social controls within a distinct community and officers will tend to conform to the norms of that subculture just as members of any community will. The key to changing these problems is addressing the cultures that exist within those agencies where officers express this fear of isolation. NYPD has come a long way in the past 20 years in addressing this, and New Orlands PD is still wrestling with this sort of thing. Chicago ... well, their problem may be more than just the PD you have a patronage and power system in part of that state that goes back over a century, so that is more than merely the police.

If you know any cops, just ask them. Most will flat out tell you about the 'professional courtesy' mentality of the boys in blue.

I know a LOT of cops ... I am one. I supervise them. I train them. I know them.

Think of the cops you know, do you truly think they entered the force to 'serve and protect their fellow man'.

Many did, yes. Some entered the career because it paid decent, sounded like fun, and the retirement sounded good. Almost to a man they will tell you that they entered to serve and help others. Fr some that may be so much smoke, but when you evaluate the psych profiles you find that police officers tend to have some common characteristics, and those characteristics do tend to lead towards a sense of service and duty. The problem isn't the attitude they have when they ENTER police work, it's the attitude that develops when they have been in it for a while.

But, that's a different topic.

It's just painful for me to read the sad stories of people being arrested for dui when no accident is involved and what they have to go thru to get their life back in order (sometimes being convicted of manslaughter gives less of a punishment after outrageous fees, revokation of license, etc. is concerned).

So, you'd rather give people a pass because they did NOT kill or injure someone on this outing?!? Really?

Have you SEEN the stats on the damage caused by DUI drivers? Have you seen the carnage caused by them? If you want, sit back, and I'll regale you with memories that will haunt me until I die ...

I don't condone driving under the influence, however it bothers me that cops can dish out dui's for the hoi polloi while rarely doing the same for fellow officers unless. Police should have to play by the same set of rules as everybody else.

If it bothers you, and you see a problem, advocate for a change in your local department where you seem to see this as a problem. Find out what their policy is and how it is being enforced. Advocate for change, or greater civilian oversight. But, since this is something you can't quantify because an officer that is stopped and cut a break will rarely have that contact documented, it's left only to the imagination or to very thorough research on the subject which would take years and lots of money.

 

[HighwayMan]

I've never heard of any cop who lost their job from giving a fellow cop a pass instead of arresting him for dui, do you java?

I have. And there was an incident a few years ago where a NYPD officer was arrested for DWI and the arresting officer encouraged him not to take the breath test. He was severely disciplined.

Most would give the pass knowing arresting another officer will make him an enemy of other police members.

Not any more, not around here anyway. Especially if there is an accident involved.

It's just painful for me to read the sad stories of people being arrested for dui when no accident is involved and what they have to go thru to get their life back in order...

Well, boo-hoo. Those people make their own choices and put other's lives at risk. Hardly a sad story when a drunk driver gets locked up.

I don't condone driving under the influence...

Well, that's exactly what it sounds like.

 

[betachains]

<<<snip>>>
Think of the cops you know, do you truly think they entered the force to 'serve and protect their fellow man'.
<<<<snip>>>

Most of them probably did so, just like most 20 somethings enter other professions with ideals burning bright.

The high pay and benefits play a part, but most ambitious young people expect to be rich anyways.

After a few years (in any job), some degree of cynicism and weariness settles in. That is just human nature.

 

[CdwJava]

Most of them probably did so, just like most 20 somethings enter other professions with ideals burning bright.

Agreed.

The high pay and benefits play a part, but most ambitious young people expect to be rich anyways.

Rich?!?! Not sure how that happens. If you're single and have no real debt, and commute an hour or more to a police job in a large metropolitan police department from a much lower cost of living community, you might do quite well for a while. But, getting rich as a peace officer? where does that happen - I'd like to go there!

After a few years (in any job), some degree of cynicism and weariness settles in. That is just human nature.

Yes, but it doesn't have to occur. While this is a function of the job, there are ways to mitigate it ... unfortunately, not every department administration is capable or willing to take the steps necessary to affect the cultural change that might limit the emotional effects of the job.