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Interesting reading for the DUI/DWI crowd....

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irish77

Member
Chief Justice Rehnquist ruled that the 25,000 roadway deaths due to alcohol were reason enough to set aside the Fourth Amendment.
The problem is that the 25,000 number was awfully misleading. It included any highway fatality in which alcohol was in any way involved: a sober motorist striking an intoxicated pedestrian, for example.
It's a number that's still used today. In 2002, the Los Angeles Times examined accident data and estimated that in the previous year, of the 18,000 "alcohol-related" traffic fatalities that drunk driving activists cited the year before, only about 5,000 involved a drunk driver taking the life of a sober driver, pedestrian, or passenger.
Claiming that 50 percent of all highway fatalities are "alcohol related" is just as valid as saying 30 percent of all highway fatalities are "speed related" or that "road rage" accounts for 70 percent of all accidents. These are all nonsense numbers made up largely by the same agency, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. Remember, this is the same agency that claimed the repeal of "55" would result in 6,000 additional fatalities. (Fatalities actually declined.)

A person distracted by a cell phone conversation or kids in the back seat can cause just as much damage and mayhem as an impaired driver.

We frequently hear that drunk drivers "cause 50% of all highway fatalities." This falls into the category of "tell a big enough lie long enough and loud enough and people will believe it."

The truth is closer to 10% of all highway fatalities are CAUSED by drunk drivers.

The federal government defines an alcohol-related fatal traffic accident as an accident where someone died and a person involved in the accident had some measurable amount of alcohol in his or her system. For example, a sober driver hits a pedestrian who has been drinking, even modestly. That's considered an alcohol-related accident. A sober driver rear-ends a driver that has had something to drink. That's considered an alcohol-related accident. A man has a drink before committing suicide in his vehicle. That's an alcohol-related accident.
 


CdwJava

Senior Member
It's a number that's still used today. In 2002, the Los Angeles Times examined accident data and estimated that in the previous year, of the 18,000 "alcohol-related" traffic fatalities that drunk driving activists cited the year before, only about 5,000 involved a drunk driver taking the life of a sober driver, pedestrian, or passenger.
According to the NHTSA National Center for Statistics and Analysis report of 2007, in 2006 there were 17,602 "alcohol related" deaths. of those, 13,470 involved drivers with a BAC of .08 or higher. I could look it up, but I doubt the number more than doubled in 4 years.

And, from the INTRODUCTION to the NHTSA 2001 report, where the 50,000 number came from:

During the late 1960s and early 1970s more than 50,000 people lost their lives each year on our nation's public roads; more than half of the fatalities involved an alcohol-impaired driver. Traffic safety has improved considerably since that time: the annual death toll has declined to about 40,000, even though the numbers of drivers, vehicles, and miles driven all have greatly increased. When miles traveled are considered, the likelihood of being killed in traffic in 1966 was more than three times what it is today.​
Note that no attempt is made to claim that all 50,000 are impaired drivers - only half of them were.

In my state roughly one third of fatalities involve a DUI driver whereas only about 10-15% of non-fatal collisions involve impaired drivers. (These numbers are off the cuff - I have the figures somewhere, just rushed this morning)

A person distracted by a cell phone conversation or kids in the back seat can cause just as much damage and mayhem as an impaired driver.
Maybe the COULD be, but they aren't. In California the number of collisions involving cell phone use as a cause or associated factor is so minuscule that it is not even a category of its own (less than 1% I am told).

So, you can try to mold the numbers as you wish, but the numbers, the methods used, and the details are all available at the NHTSA web site. The problem is very real, and very dangerous. You can choose to believe it or not, that's your call.

- Carl
 

irish77

Member
forget the stats then....

Stats are stats. I know they can be misleading. The thing is, DUI/DWI's are about one thing.....money. I will end up paying more fines than someone who beat their wife and who got caught dealing marijuana to the public. The reason I know this is because those two idiots got to leave the court room with nothing more than a slap on the wrist. To me, DUI punishments are based 100% on what could of happened**************

That's all I am starting to believe. There's so many ways to look at this, but it's the same reason why cigarettes (440,000 deaths a year) and alchohol will never be illegal. There are too many parties involved that are getting fat off of the money involved in these cases.

I mean, what did the government do to stop people from smoking? they put a nice little label for people.

Once the states and counties figured out how to make money off of these violations, they constantly search out ways to make it a cash cow. I.e. DUI checkpoints, classes, programs, young offender programs, fines, interlocking......

How about this instead? The guy who walked out of the court room right past me...how about video monitoring 24-7 on him so the next time he decides to beat up his wife we can see him when he picks up a bat or hammer...and the guy that got caught dealing weed. We'll put an anklet on him to make sure he doesn't deal to some 10-year old kid**************

Look, I'm not even mad about my punishment. I got 7 months suspension in jersey and most likely 12 months in PA. I live in the city and work 1.5 miles from work. After my PA suspension I will most likely have to get interlocking and pay add'l surcharges. Again, no big deal. JUST MONEY.

When I read more and more and think about things in the criminal justice system in comparison to the DMV & DOT's; the differences are staggering.

I mean, who would you rather have raising your child? A one-time DUI offender, a drug-dealer or an abusive husband/dad? Come on now......
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
Stats are stats. I know they can be misleading. The thing is, DUI/DWI's are about one thing.....money.
I disagree. I know that money has never been the driving force at the local level (at least in California), and I don't get a bonus for every DUI I arrest. So, if there is money, it's for the defense attorneys and maybe for the state from the fines. But, since much of the fines and assessments go to earmarked programs for DUI education, there is no local incentive to enforce DUI if not for public safety.

I will end up paying more fines than someone who beat their wife and who got caught dealing marijuana to the public.
I suppose it depends on the laws in your state.

Out here, you could pay more for running a red light than for possession of marijuana. A spousal abuser can pay much greater fines ... depending on the specific offense charged.

To me, DUI punishments are based 100% on what could of happened**************
They are based on the risk potential. If I shoot 20 rounds into the air in front of my house on a residential street and don't hit anyone, should I be clear of any criminal offense simply because no one was reportedly hit by falling bullets or by an accidental discharge?

In our nation we have laws that are designed to punish dangerous behavior - particularly when it places others at an increased risk. This is precisely what DUI does.

I mean, what did the government do to stop people from smoking? they put a nice little label for people.
And in my state, smoking is down due to education. No, I do not like raising taxes on tobacco, but then I don't believe in creating new entitlements through taxes because when the behavior is reduced, the program remains and becomes a drain on other revenue streams.

There are many reasons why tobacco and alcohol will never be entirely banned, and this is largely because the electorate (that is to say, you and me) would never go for it.

How about this instead? The guy who walked out of the court room right past me...how about video monitoring 24-7 on him so the next time he decides to beat up his wife we can see him when he picks up a bat or hammer...and the guy that got caught dealing weed. We'll put an anklet on him to make sure he doesn't deal to some 10-year old kid**************
If he gets sentenced to probation, great. Uh ... but how do we pay for it? THAT kind of program would cost even more than ankle monitors which are a very expensive proposition without the fancy video.

I mean, who would you rather have raising your child? A one-time DUI offender, a drug-dealer or an abusive husband/dad? Come on now......
What's that got to do with anything?

- Carl
 

irish77

Member
Very good arguments sir. I don't know....what I meant by the last comment is that all three of us will be back in society at some point. I've experienced drug dealers, abusive fathers, and DUI offenders (me & friends). I'd take the DUI offenders over the people I would continue to trust in society. The guy who beat his wife had to go to a "community" anger mgmt course which I know was BS. Oh well, I am looking to buy a skateboard to get some exercise out of this ordeal......

Please Mr. PennDot....don't suspend my license for a whole year!!!
 

fitz

Junior Member
Does the punishment fit the crime?

I believe it is about the all mighty dollar. I believe I am not a menace to society. I made a bad decision to drink and drive and go caught. A over whelming majority of people who drink and drive do not get caught.

With strong advocacy/lobby groups like MADD, DA's are required to file misdemeanor charges or they themselves will get slapped with a misdemeanor charge.

DUI lawyers charge anywhere from $1500 - $3000 for your standard first time DUI offense. For the lawyer it a standard procedure of entering a not guilty plea so they can plea bargin with the DA to have the fines and punishment reduced for their client. In my case $400 fine plus $177 in court costs, that's the minimum; could have been up to $1000 in fines. The tower truck company impounds your car and charges you $200 + to get it back. Most convicted offenders have to attend some sort of DUI school which cost cost anywhere from 125 - 200 bucks. A victim's awareness panel required by the court - $50.00. Not to mention increase in car insurance premiums. Many industries are tied into the DUI process. Capialism at it's best.

Will I drink and drive again? God I hope not. I am remorseful for what I did and am now paying through the nose for it.
 

Zigner

Senior Member, Non-Attorney
I believe it is about the all mighty dollar. I believe I am not a menace to society. I made a bad decision to drink and drive and go caught. A over whelming majority of people who drink and drive do not get caught.

With strong advocacy/lobby groups like MADD, DA's are required to file misdemeanor charges or they themselves will get slapped with a misdemeanor charge.

DUI lawyers charge anywhere from $1500 - $3000 for your standard first time DUI offense. For the lawyer it a standard procedure of entering a not guilty plea so they can plea bargin with the DA to have the fines and punishment reduced for their client. In my case $400 fine plus $177 in court costs, that's the minimum; could have been up to $1000 in fines. The tower truck company impounds your car and charges you $200 + to get it back. Most convicted offenders have to attend some sort of DUI school which cost cost anywhere from 125 - 200 bucks. A victim's awareness panel required by the court - $50.00. Not to mention increase in car insurance premiums. Many industries are tied into the DUI process. Capialism at it's best.

Will I drink and drive again? God I hope not. I am remorseful for what I did and am now paying through the nose for it.
This just PROVES that the laws aren't quite strict enough yet... :rolleyes:
 

Isis1

Senior Member
This just PROVES that the laws aren't quite strict enough yet... :rolleyes:
serirously :( i got a DUI 3 years ago. jeez, that was alot of inconvenience for almost a year. paying fees, attending classes. if i feel the need to drink, there's a bar two blocks from my home. i can walk. or take a taxi. i feel stupid still. that was the stupidest thing i had ever done. and i can say with absolute confidence, i will NEVER do it again.

you don't want to contribute to the capitalism...don't do stupid things!!
 

paguy88

Member
I disagree. I know that money has never been the driving force at the local level (at least in California), and I don't get a bonus for every DUI I arrest. So, if there is money, it's for the defense attorneys and maybe for the state from the fines. But, since much of the fines and assessments go to earmarked programs for DUI education, there is no local incentive to enforce DUI if not for public safety.
I think DUI is more about money.... for none accidents cases...

thus look at PA....

ARD... 10,000 open ARD caes in my county each day.... menaing the county has atleast 10,000 people in the program on any given day... of those 10,000 7,000 are for DUI.... get everything a person convited of DUI except jail and in the end you get a expungement.... (Major differance of course)

take this for a example... first time DUI fine is 750 bucks for BAC of .08-.159 that being said if you get ARD.. fine moved up from 1200-1350... those fines are going to state some funds for EMS some CAT fund (I think) and al whole buch of useless stuff... Oh and if look close the local municpality gets like 150 bucks of the fine as well...

what are some of the stats a person arreested for dui? some one told me 1 arrest for every 300 times drunk driving.. you have a 1 - 1000 chance of getting arrested for DUI...

I would love for us all to come to my town and see the drunks pulling out of the hot spots on a Sat night... it's unreal..

I get how someone can get to .085 or .09 and not know they are drunk....

I want a zero tolerance BAC level... well maybe .02 you need some lee way...
 

BigMistakeFl

Senior Member
Unfair?

The DUI laws are unfair in my humble opinion. The reason is that we have been careful not to make drinking and driving illegal. That would be fair, then we would all know that if we drink any alcohol and choose to drive, we are breaking the law. The burden of judging whether one is impaired or not has foolishly been placed on the shoulders of the driver who has been drinking.

Until driving after consuming any alcohol, (BAC of anything higher than zero) is illegal, the DUI laws will remain unfair. I choose not to drive after drinking ever again, but it is not illegal to do so.
 

swrdmbo

Member
If DUI checkpoints were about making money they would not publish where they are going to be located AHEAD OF TIME!!!!

They truly are to reduce the number of people drinking and driving.
 

paguy88

Member
If DUI checkpoints were about making money they would not publish where they are going to be located AHEAD OF TIME!!!!

They truly are to reduce the number of people drinking and driving.

they have too publish it.. it's required by law to run them...

They have to get a perimit to in effect shut the road down. If you really wannted to know the exact location before they are run in my area you can find out.

In PA they have to inform the public that they are running one... they usually give a general area... say something like this DUI Check point will be run by the DUI South Hills task force this friday night.... in Jefferson Township... that's about all they have to do...

they also can not in my state block just any old road...

it must be a high traffic DUI arrest/accident area... how they define the exact location is beyond me.

My personal opinion is they are a clear violation of the 4th amenedment... This is America we dont have road blocks... they do stuff like that in China but wait in america as well... Yet people have found a way to get around this.. in the name of DUI.

just remember 40 states allow check points.. 10 others told the US Supreme court to shove it... and do not allow them...

god bless those states they like to protect there citizens 4th amerndment rights..
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
I believe it is about the all mighty dollar.
If it truly were, maybe we'd make some money doing it. DUI enforcement is a money loser here.

A over whelming majority of people who drink and drive do not get caught.
As do the overwhelming majority of thieves and other criminals ... this does not mean the damage they cause is not real.

With strong advocacy/lobby groups like MADD, DA's are required to file misdemeanor charges or they themselves will get slapped with a misdemeanor charge.
Please cite the state where this is the law, and the statute that requires a DA to file on a DUI case. This just does not ring true. Heck, DA's don't have to file on domestic violence, sex crimes, or even murder charges - why would they be required to file on a DUI charge if they did not feel they could make the case at trial?

DUI lawyers charge anywhere from $1500 - $3000 for your standard first time DUI offense.
News flash - a criminal defense attorney costs the same.

The tower truck company impounds your car and charges you $200 + to get it back.
Actually, the police department or highway patrol / state police impound your car. The tow company receiving the impound is legally able to charge the standard rate for their time and storage.

Many industries are tied into the DUI process. Capialism at it's best.
The same holds true for drug abuse, domestic violence, child abuse, etc. DUI is no different than many other crimes in this regard.

Will I drink and drive again? God I hope not. I am remorseful for what I did and am now paying through the nose for it.
I truly hope you will not make the same mistake again. If so, great for you! Sadly, many of the people we deal with did not learn from the first one or two arrests.

- Carl
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
they have too publish it.. it's required by law to run them...
And they are still money losers. It costs us a lot of money to run a checkpoint ... a LOT of money. This is money we do not receive back from the arrests, and only part of the cost is absorbed by OTS grants.

My personal opinion is they are a clear violation of the 4th amenedment...
The courts have clearly disagreed with you.

just remember 40 states allow check points.. 10 others told the US Supreme court to shove it... and do not allow them...
They did not tell the USSC to "shove it." States are permitted to have higher standards than the federal standard if they wish, but they cannot diminish Constitutional protections below what the Constitution permits. So, if a state wants to prohibit or restrict these legal activities, they are free to do so.

Because the USSC said it is constitutional does NOT imply that they are saying everyone should do it.


- Carl
 

paguy88

Member
And they are still money losers. It costs us a lot of money to run a checkpoint ... a LOT of money. This is money we do not receive back from the arrests, and only part of the cost is absorbed by OTS grants.
what is a OTS grant?

My state they are fully funded by Penndot. The OT the cops make, the equipment ect.

The courts have clearly disagreed with you.
true... however that does not mean they are correct.. suprme courts come and go and some day another court with a different option may rule different. should they choose to listen to the simliar case again.

but I am courious why is a road block legal in your mind? what make it any more right to stop cars on the highway for no good reason other than being on the road...

They did not tell the USSC to "shove it." States are permitted to have higher standards than the federal standard if they wish, but they cannot diminish Constitutional protections below what the Constitution permits. So, if a state wants to prohibit or restrict these legal activities, they are free to do so.

Because the USSC said it is constitutional does NOT imply that they are saying everyone should do it.
I will disagee with you on this point it was a michigan case that was the reason for the ruling... then the Michigan supreme court still said NO after the US one said it was legal. WHere I come from that is telling someone to shove it..


Oh and in another thread I had a question... I will ask again..

lets say you stop me for driving over the speed limit... no other infraction...

you take my DL... and "run it"

what exact info will you get back on me?

criminal history?

driving record?

what i had for breakfast? haha

I am courious
 

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