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Is this ethical

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quincy

Senior Member
It could depend, tranquility, on whether AffyMom has an attorney for her harassment action, and on whether AffyMom's employer is a non-party witness to the harassment complaint she has filed, and on how the fact that the original email was sent using the employer's computer plays into it, and on how the attorney (if it was an attorney) identified himself to the employer, and on a whole lot of other facts and information not provided here. . . . .

. . . .which is why I have continued to say that whether an ethical rule was violated or not would depend on what was communicated via phone and fax to the employer.

As soon as an attorney knows that the party contacted is represented (and to know that he must inquire), the attorney runs into the Rules of Professional Conduct. It is impossible to know, without inquiry, whether the employer who was contacted is an adversary witness to the pending action, a witness to the pending action, or is represented by counsel merely to protect his own interests (the interests of which could arise since the email was sent via a company computer).

You have Rules 4.1, 4.2, 4.3, 4.4 and 1.13 that all may come into play. Whether they do or not is a question that I cannot answer, based on what little information AffyMom provided here.

However, it would be wrong to blanketly say that there has been no ethical violation.

When in doubt, New Jersey cautions all attorneys to use the script - with the attorney identifying who he is, who his employer is, who his client is, and the nature of and parties to the pending action and its adversarial character. And there should be a specific inquiry as to whether the person contacted is represented by counsel.

And, to throw a little extra in, Stengart v Loving Care Agency Inc, A-35-6-08T1, addresses the expectation of privacy in emails even when sent using a company computer. ;)

If you want me to provide some relevant New Jersey case law addressing the Rules, I will post back.
 
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itdepends

Member
As long as the employer is not represented by counsel in the matter, then the communication was ethical. It doesn't matter whether or not the OP had counsel.

Based on the little we were told, Quincy is making a mountain out of a mole hill.
 

tranquility

Senior Member
It could depend, tranquility, on whether AffyMom has an attorney for her harassment action
Not regarding the call/fax to the employer of AffyMom.

and on whether AffyMom's employer is a non-party witness to the harassment complaint she has filed,
First, there is NOTHING to indicate this is the case. We can often add if's and but's, but they need to be based on facts in some way. There are NO fact to indicate this. Second, what do you base that on? Which ethical cannon or rule has been violated if true?

and on how the fact that the original email was sent using the employer's computer plays into it,
How so?

and on how the attorney (if it was an attorney) identified himself to the employer,
From the OP:
But today my boss ( not me ) received a phone call from someone claiming they were this womans attorney
and on a whole lot of other facts and information not provided here.
Like? I've got one! If the OP's employer is actually an employee of the OP's company and the company is representing, through it's council, the OP and the facts and circumstances related to the questions/statements deal with the representation. Whew! The script is not mandatory and deals with a different situation than here.

The ethical issue is to protect a person who thinks the attorney they're talking to is *their* attorney and not one for someone else. I think the attorney did this pretty well as it was one of the few facts mentioned by the OP. The question comes up with agency/employee issues where a person is employed by a corporation being sued. The corporate attorney asks the person questions. The person must clearly understand the attorney represents the company and not the person (unless such dual representation is appropriate and disclosed). By speaking freely with that attorney, the person could be in trouble as the attorney could use that information against them (at least without the ethical protections designed for here).

Quite frankly, I see no realistic set of facts or information which the OP could tell us which would make me think there is an ethical violation here as based on the facts we're talking about. If what was said were lies or untrue accusations we could have a cause of action and an ethical violation, but not on the facts alleged.
 

quincy

Senior Member
I do not see, itdepends, on how saying that there may be an ethical violation is making a mountain out of a molehill.

We were not given enough information to rule out an ethical violation nor were we given enough information to rule it in. If you feel comfortable saying that there was absolutely no ethical violation here, then go ahead and say that. But I am certainly not comfortable making a blanket statement like that based on what little we know.

We know that AffyMom filed an harassment suit, that AffyMom emailed the other party using a company computer, and that someone saying he was a lawyer called AffyMom's employer, "tried to get [him] fired," and faxed the email to the employer. That's it.

How can any of us tell AffyMom, based on that information, that the call was legal or ethical? We do not know what this supposed attorney said or what the call was about.

Was the call about the email or the harassment action? We don't know. Has AffyMom discussed the harassment action with her employer? We don't know. Does AffyMom have an attorney for the harassment action? We don't know. Does the employer have ANY role in the pending litigation? We don't know.

In fact, as tranquility pointed out, we don't know enough to rule anything in or out - and we can come up with as many absurd scenarios as we like when we have no facts to base anything on. So, why anyone feels that they can say with any certainty that the call was legal and ethical is beyond me. There are not enough facts presented here to say one way or the other.

And, tranquility, the Rules of Professional Conduct do not apply only in a corporate setting and to corporate cases (although it will be the corporate cases you are apt to run across). You may be interested in checking out the ABA's Formal Opinion 117, supra, and the ABA's Informal Opinions 908 (1964) and 670 (1963).
 
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tranquility

Senior Member
And, tranquility, the Rules of Professional Conduct do not apply only in a corporate setting and to corporate cases (although it will be the corporate cases you are apt to run across). You may be interested in checking out the ABA's Formal Opinion 117, supra, and the ABA's Informal Opinions 908 (1964) and 670 (1963).
Stop putting random opinions out. These are not applicable to our facts unless the employer is actually the employee. Cite the opinion, but pull quote the *relevant* portion.
 

quincy

Senior Member
I thought you were capable of pulling the relevant portions out, tranq. The opinions do not apply only to employer/employee, just as the ethical rules do not only apply to corporate cases. All of the Opinions cited refer to the affirmative duty an attorney has to disclose he is seeking information on behalf of a potential claimant.

The majority of cases where attorney ethics questions are addressed will be higher-profile cases, however, because most minor league cases are not going to mess with minor league ethics violations.

At any rate, AffyMom did not ask about attorney ethics except to inquire as to whether the call from the attorney to the boss could be illegal or unethical.

If you just want to say that there is absolutely NO ethical violation possible, based on what little we know, I have no problem with you saying that. I will simply disagree. I contend that there could be an ethical violation. I would certainly not rule it out without knowing more.


Edit to add: Tranquility, most of my information is accessed through media channels, and I don't know what sort of legal-site access you have, but if you want a good New Jersey ethics review, you can go to http://www.law.cornell.edu/ethics/nj/narr/NJ_NARR_4.HTM#4.3.200. Rule 4.3:200, Dealing with Unrepresented Person, has a fairly thorough commentary on how the Rules apply - and why the "corporate" information was added to the Rules when amended in 1996.
 
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tranquility

Senior Member
I thought you were capable of pulling the relevant portions out, tranq. The opinions do not apply only to employer/employee, just as the ethical rules do not only apply to corporate cases. All of the Opinions cited refer to the affirmative duty an attorney has to disclose he is seeking information on behalf of a potential claimant.
Actually, I am quite capable of pulling relevant portions out and that's why I need your assistance. I'm not seeing the relevant portions. I've never said it applies only to corporate cases, it's just that it is a lot easier to mistake the attorney's call in that instance. Of course, based on our facts and potential facts we KNOW that an attorney would not have such an affirmative duty if he were not seeking information on behalf of a potential claimant. Besides, it does seem like the OP knows what was going on through the employer. It seems like the requirements were met. Yeah, he can't lie either. He can't advertise his services without following a certain process, he can't lots of things. Here, he(she)
So my question is if this was truly a legitamate attorney is it legal and ethical to contact my boss and speak to him about a domestic issue or would this attorney have to notify me via letter or would he have to talk to me and not my boss. I have a feeling it was the ex pretending to be an attorney this is why I need to know if it is legal or ethical for an attorney to call my boss and not me and discuss something like that without my knowledge.
The majority of cases where attorney ethics questions are addressed will be higher-profile cases, however, because most minor league cases are not going to mess with minor league ethics violations.
Please identify the alleged ethical violation.

At any rate, AffyMom did not ask about attorney ethics except to inquire as to whether the call from the attorney to the boss could be illegal or unethical.
It is not from any information we have. Besides, the questions were: "IS IT LEGAL FOR AN ATTORNEY TO CALL AN EMPLOYER AN SPEAK TO THEM WITHOUT MY KNOWLEDGE.", "is it legal for an attorney to call an employer", "is it legal and ethical to contact my boss and speak to him about a domestic issue or would this attorney have to notify me via letter or would he have to talk to me and not my boss". What is your answer?

If you just want to say that there is absolutely NO ethical violation possible, based on what little we know, I have no problem with you saying that. I will simply disagree. I contend that there could be an ethical violation. I would certainly not rule it out without knowing more.
Make one up for me. Tell me a quick story where there could have been a violation here. There is no accusation of lying or misrepresentation. The attorney identified himself and said nothing we are aware of which was false. There was no advertising mentioned. Now, tell me a story.

As to the edit, I've looked through that and have had a class on legal ethics. I don't see your point at 4.3:200. I see the attorney cannot "imply that the lawyer is disinterested. When the lawyer knows or reasonably should know that the unrepresented person misunderstands the lawyer’s role in the matter, the lawyer shall make reasonable efforts to correct the misunderstanding. " Do you think the employer misunderstood the attorney's role in the matter?
 

Ohiogal

Queen Bee
I know it is an old thread but she has another thread in which she has been married many many years and her husband walked out AND she has been disabled since an accident 7 years ago and can't work. Bringing it up for comparison and contrast:
#1 AffyMom46 View Profile View Forum Posts View Blog Entries View Articles Add as Contact
Junior Member Join Date Jul 2009
Posts 7 Spousal Abandonment
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? NJ

On Friday my husband of 11 yrs left me without any warning . He got up showered kissed me and said see ya later and 15 min later I received a text saying he will not be coming home and he will have his attorney call me. He said he hasnt been happy in yrs and he needs a life. Later I went to get a few things from the store to find out he cleaned the bank account out and left me with nothing. Ive tried calling him and texting and he is a coward and will not respond to any messages. Today when I was getting things ready to go for assistance I find he took all my personal papers. I went to assistance office and the state said I cannot receive any help what so ever. Can anyone please help with some advise. If I did not say before I am disabled due to a back injury 7 yrs ago so I cannot work due to the disability.
Gotta love liars. And yes, stating she is AffyMom46 by using the username when she isn't is lying -- because I am guessing she will state she is using her friend's account.
 

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