Is this legal?

[TCool]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? WI

Hi, I am posting on behalf of my girlfriend. I know a lot of you like to see the person with the problem posting, but I wanted to post for her as she is currently really upset about the situation and I figured it'd be easier for someone who isn't upset to do the posting.

Anyway, my girlfriend had lived in an apartment with 5 other college students. She subletted her room out to another person back in May and the lease just ended on August 15th. There were problems almost the entire year with a roommate keeping a cat that damaged much of the apartment, so she was expecting legal issues. So, she finds out today that the property management company is going after her and 5 other people for about 2400 dollars in unpaid rent and about 5,000 dollars in damages.

The main issue she is having now is not just the unpaid rent and damages as she was expecting that, but the people the company is going after and more specifically the people they are not. There were originally 5 people on the lease, one person was living there without being on the lease. Two people subletted their room, including my girlfriend. Now, the people on the lease are my girlfriend, 3 of the original roommates and the 2 subletters. What we are trying to figure out is how one of the roommates were able to get off the lease. My girlfriend believes a lot of the unpaid rent is from this person that moved out and got off the lease. She was responsible for 600 dollars a month in rent out of the 2400 a month total. This girl moved out in May and according to the accounting records did not pay rent after may at all. So, the questions my girlfriend has is how could this girl have gotten out of the lease without permission from the rest of the lease holders, and without them even having any knowledge of it until now? Is there any legal way? And, can the rental company then come after the other lease holders for the unpaid rent this girl was responsible for? I don't know if this is relevant, but the girl who got out of the lease never was able to sublet her room.

From my understanding of the lease they had, they were all on one lease for the whole apartment and had separate written agreements that stated how much each was going to pay for their rooms.

Any information anyone can give me would be a great help. Thanks in advance for the help.

 

[MIRAKALES]

The security deposit is designated for the premises only, not to the individual. The total damages to premises are deducted from the entire security deposit. Most leases will specify that all occupants are “jointly and separately” responsible for the condition of premises and the terms of lease. This means that all occupants are equally responsible for damages and rent regardless of which individual(s) caused the damages or rent deficiency. (The tenants are able to sue the responsible roommate(s) by proving damage liability were caused by the individuals.)
In the case of damages, all tenants are each responsible for the damages to the premises. The non-pet owners/rent paying tenants are able to sue the pet owners/non-rent paying tenants for the liability by proving damage was caused only by the pet owners and non-rent paying roommates. However, LL need not sue all individuals. In fact, most LLs will sue the accessible tenants with the ability to pay. But a claim can be made in defense of total tenant liability in a court of law.

In the case of individual lease agreements (that does not include the "jointly and separately" language) then individual tenants will be responsible for their individual rooms and the common areas which were shared.

 

[TCool]

Ok, we realize all of that. As far as individual agreements, it has come to my attention that there were none at all.

But, the main question here is how can this one girl be let off the lease 3 months before the lease terminated without approval of the other lease holders? Shouldn't this girl also be responsible for damages and unpaid rent since she too signed the year lease?

 

[HomeGuru]

Ok, we realize all of that. As far as individual agreements, it has come to my attention that there were none at all.

But, the main question here is how can this one girl be let off the lease 3 months before the lease terminated without approval of the other lease holders?

**A: you have a point and the other co-tenants have a casue of action.


#######
Shouldn't this girl also be responsible for damages and unpaid rent since she too signed the year lease?

**A: yes, under the theory of joint and several liability.

 

[TCool]

Ok, thanks. I thought that, but it turns out I tend to know nothing about legal stuff.

One more question now, what can be done about this? Should my girlfriend and her ex-roommates make a case against the management company over this, or should they wait until the company takes them to court and present the information proving this girl was originally on the lease to the judge?

Thanks again for your advice.

 

[johnd]

Ok, thanks. I thought that, but it turns out I tend to know nothing about legal stuff.

One more question now, what can be done about this? Should my girlfriend and her ex-roommates make a case against the management company over this, or should they wait until the company takes them to court and present the information proving this girl was originally on the lease to the judge?

Thanks again for your advice.

If there is a joint and several clause in the lease, the LL may sue any one of you, all five of you, or any permutation in between...at the LL's pleasure. If this occurs, the onus is now upon you to collect from the other leasee(s).

 

[TCool]

If there is a joint and several clause in the lease, the LL may sue any one of you, all five of you, or any permutation in between...at the LL's pleasure. If this occurs, the onus is now upon you to collect from the other leasee(s).

Ok, I understand that too. However, my question is, what do they do about someone who was taken off the lease without approval of the other lease holders?

I just found this on some information the city hands out to renters: "The only way to modify a
written lease agreement is if all parties agree to the changes." Clearly the landlord did not get the agreement of all parties for the change of removing someone from the lease. In fact, none of them even knew she was off the lease until recently. So, what course of action can the rest of the lease holders take against the girl removed or the rental company to ensure that this girl is also held responsible? How can any of the other lessee's recover damages from this girl if she was removed from the lease?

 

[johnd]

I just found this on some information the city hands out to renters: "The only way to modify a
written lease agreement is if all parties agree to the changes." Clearly the landlord did not get the agreement of all parties for the change of removing someone from the lease.

What city?

That's generally the case...unless otherwise stipulated in the lease (that the LL may at his sole discretion terminate a tenant's interest...w/ that tenant's approval). Admittedly an odd one, but this could be the case. If the former (that the lease may not be rescinded or modified in any way w/o approval of all interested parties), you would then have to sue (most probably both the tenant and the LL).

 

[TCool]

The city is Madison. I will definitely have them look at the lease for that. Thanks for the information.

 

[MIRAKALES]

There is no way to “remove” a tenant from a signed, written lease agreement. There is only one written lease agreement, signed by all tenants. That lease agreement is the only document that evidenced the tenancy. Therefore, either all parties signed the lease agreement and all parties are “jointly and separately” liable for the lease violations -or- all parties did not sign the lease agreement. Nevertheless, if roommates name and signature are not on the lease then roommate was not an authorized tenant. If roommates name and signature are on the lease then room is an authorized tenant -- LL could not terminate the tenancy of one without termination of the entire agreement.

 

[johnd]

The city is Madison. I will definitely have them look at the lease for that. Thanks for the information.

Madison has rules that are unique to their town...because of all the young renters there. First look to the lease for whatever provisions are agreed upon, and then use the handbook as an additional guide. All the answers to your questions ought to be contained in those two documents.

 

[Mrs. D]

Others have given you useful information here. Especially important is the clause that says the lease cannot be modified without consent of all parties. LL/MC clearly violated this clause, and I would say that makes the change (removing one tenant) invalid, since that change violated the original lease.

Here's the tricky thing: if LL/MC take your gf to court and win, there will be a judgment against her on her credit report and public records. This is bad for someone, especially if they are going to be getting out of college in a few years and looking for a job, a decent apartment, a car, or even a home.

When I ran into this situation, I found the money to pay the LL what was owed before he got us to court, and then went after the violating roommate. In that case, I needed my LL's help to pull this off, in the form of providing a statement and proof (copies of checks) that myself and our other roommate paid our share of the rent, and pictures and a statement that showed the damages to her area and the spotlessness of the common areas and our areas. I think this would be a similar situation, where proof that only the LL/MC would have would greatly bolster a case against the roommate.

I would encourage your gf to talk to the LL/MC and see if she and/or the others paid what they were requesting if the LL/MC would then be willing to provide evidence of who did or did not do what. If your gf could also get roomies and sub-lettors together and get proof of their payments (canceled checks, bank records) and their damages (pictures of individual rooms, common areas, receipts for cleaning/supplies, etc.). That would also be helpful.

I just feel like it's so much better to have a slightly uphill battle to recover funds from a deadbeat roommate than to be plagued by a judgment for years to come.

 

[TCool]

Ok, thanks for all the information. It will definitely come in handy.

My girlfriend is planning on meeting with the company to get copies of everything.

It is looking like one of the roomies who was giving her information was mistaken about this girl who was removed from the lease not paying all her portion. It looks like she did pay all of her portion, but my girlfriend is going to get copies of all the accounting records to verify.

If that is the case all the unpaid rent is from someone who is still on the lease, and the majority of the damages are from her too. However, the remaining lease holders feel it is unfair that this girl be let off the hook when they are all being held responsible. But, it is looking to me like it is not really worth doing anything about that if she actually did pay all her share because it would just be easier for them to go after the girl actually responsible for the damages. Am I correct here?

Also, there are questions arising about the damages being charged. From what I understand the rental companies are supposed to be reasonable in their charges, correct? If so, could $50/hr for taking out garbage be considered unreasonable? And, could $1500 dollars for repainting one wall also be considered unreasonable?

It really blows my mind that they are charging those prices for those reasons, yet when it comes to repairing the cat damage they only charged $150. I know that doesn't really matter here, but I find it funny. I figured they could have found 5,000 dollars in damages alone from the cat, but only charged $150 for it.

LOL, if only people would learn to listen to me... you think she would've learned after the same issues last yer... but she resigned the lease for another year. *sigh*

 

[Mrs. D]

If your gf is going to take roommate(s) to court, she should only go after those who owe something, such as unpaid rent or fees for damages that they alone caused. While the joint and several liability nature of her lease makes her and her roommates individually and jointly responsible for all charges, fees, and unpaid monies, only the one(s) causing the damages/owing the monies should be sued by your gf and her roommates.

$50/hr for removing trash is well within the fees I have seen before. When I was in college, the large apt. complex I lived at for 2 years charged $20/bag. Now, if they charged you for 20 hours removing trash and you have pictures to prove that the apartment was not that dirty, you may have grounds to fight those charges.

As for the painting, $1500 for one wall seems through the roof. Ask the LL/MC for proof of these charges, such as receipts. If, however, the painting was needed because the cat marked that area, $1500 may be reasonable, as they most likely would have had to strip the existing paint, deodorize and sanitize, re-prime, re-paint, and maybe even replace some of the drywall/baseboards. It's worth a little investigation as to why this charge was so high.

 

[TCool]

As for the painting, $1500 for one wall seems through the roof. Ask the LL/MC for proof of these charges, such as receipts. If, however, the painting was needed because the cat marked that area, $1500 may be reasonable, as they most likely would have had to strip the existing paint, deodorize and sanitize, re-prime, re-paint, and maybe even replace some of the drywall/baseboards. It's worth a little investigation as to why this charge was so high.

Well, thats one of the things that boggles my mind. I would totally understand that charge, except the painting was in a different room and it is even stated on the paper that it is because the wall was painted green by the tenant. They actually only charged $150 for the cat damages. That surprises me because I saw the damage the cat did to the one room and I figured repairing those damages would have run in the thousands. The odor from cat urine is not an easy thing to remove.

But anyway, she is going to be asking for receipts for everything. I think after getting this information what is going to end up happening is they are all just going to split the costs and sue the person responsible for the unpaid rent and most of the damages.

Thanks again for all the information.