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justalayman

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jimmler

Member
What is the name of your state? Any state U.S.A.

Quote:"Question to you jimmler;
Are you familiar with the term "mortgage survey"? The mortgage companies usually required no more than this in my area for residential purposes. It was a not staked, (on paper only) diagram of the property with buildings, fences, etc shown on the diagram. It did include dimensions.
Is this what you are referring to with a boundary survey and opposed to a "stake" survey where corner stakes are placed?

It would be nice to know the proper, correct, common name of the different types of surveys.

Is there a correct or proper or more commonly used term for this?"

There are many different types of surveys that may be performed. I will hit on a few of the most common ones, and please bear in mind that some may be known by slightly different names in different states, and survey practices differ from state to state.

1. Mortgage location drawing, Mortgage survey, mortgage inspection, Location Drawing (all the same thing usually). This is usually all a bank requires for a mortgage, and may cost a few hundred dollars. Many people get this product and mistake it for a boundary survey, but they benefit the bank only.

These are not legal in all states. Where they are legal, they are usually only an inspection of the property, where using the visible possession lines, fences, etc., the surveyor shows approximate locations of improvements to the property, with approximate dimensions. Usually they have disclaimers all over them saying they are not a boundary survey and cannot be used for construction or to establish the property lines (in other words, you cannot measure over the dimension off of the house to the property line to establish that line).

2. Boundary Survey, stake survey.

This is the type of survey you need in order to have your property lines established. The surveyor will research your property, and your neighbors property for any deeds and plats for the properties, then go into the field (many times the surveyor does not go into the field themselves, but sends an apprentice he/she has supervision over) and locate property evidence such as pipes, stones, iron bars, etc.. Then the surveyor analyzes the evidence found, compares it to the property deeds and plats, and determines where the boundary lines are. Then the surveyor or apprentice will set or mark the corners. A drawing of the findings may or may not be included, so be sure to ask.

If you are buying or selling a house, the bank will also require the improvements located and shown on a drawing. This is usually not included in the boundary survey price and will be extra, since it takes more time. Make sure to ask for improvements locations up front, it will be less expensive if they don't have to make an extra trip. Another item that is usually extra are points on line, or POL's (for long lines you can't see from corner to corner). Asking for all items you need up front will bring the cost down.

3. Topographic survey.

If you are building a house or addition, pool, or some other improvement to your property, where you are required to submit a plot plan or site plan to obtain a building permit, you may want to get a "topo" survey done. The surveyor will "shoot" elevations on the property, then plot the elevation locations and pull contours, then provide a drawing of the same.

This can be provided to your architect so they can complete their design, to an engineer if they need to be involved for sewer or septic design, etc.

4. ALTA survey.

This is a very detailed boundary survey which shows all easements and encumbrances to the property as discovered with a required title report, and any items discovered by the surveyors own research into deeds and plats. It can include many options such as improvement locations, topography, etc as listed on the ACSM site under ALTA requirements.

These surveys are very expensive, and are usually only done on high dollar commercial real estate.

jimmler
I am not a lawyer, I have been in surveying since 1989.

Also, if you want state specific information about surveying, your state surveying society or association's sites usually contain a wealth of knowledge on the subject.
 
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justalayman

Senior Member
Thanks jimmler. After my mistake, I needed that.

If I may ask a question.

In these days of high tech and all, but knowing that GPS is very crude in relation to what a survey needs to be, how do you survey in, say the middle of Alaska where there are no state planted section corner marks (I would presume anyway) and very possibly no previous markers of any kind.

While we don't get many Alaska folks on this site, there have been the occasional OP that has been in an area that they state the surveyor told them the lot line etc. was not able to be plotted for some reason or another. What do you do to make an accurate survey in a case like that?

And maybe a dumb curious question but (I think in the old days) when a compass played a part, magnetic north not only is not unmoving (over long periods of time i.e. century, millenia) but I understand there are seasonal variations of where mag. north actually is. How the dickens could there be any actual true accuracy.

I don't expect: surveying 400, I probably wouldn't understand it anyway. Just the basics if that is possible.
 

jimmler

Member
justalayman said:
Thanks jimmler. After my mistake, I needed that.

If I may ask a question.

In these days of high tech and all, but knowing that GPS is very crude in relation to what a survey needs to be, how do you survey in, say the middle of Alaska where there are no state planted section corner marks (I would presume anyway) and very possibly no previous markers of any kind.

While we don't get many Alaska folks on this site, there have been the occasional OP that has been in an area that they state the surveyor told them the lot line etc. was not able to be plotted for some reason or another. What do you do to make an accurate survey in a case like that?

And maybe a dumb curious question but (I think in the old days) when a compass played a part, magnetic north not only is not unmoving (over long periods of time i.e. century, millenia) but I understand there are seasonal variations of where mag. north actually is. How the dickens could there be any actual true accuracy.

I don't expect: surveying 400, I probably wouldn't understand it anyway. Just the basics if that is possible.
Your first question is a good one, and unfortunately I am not familiar at all with the survey practices in Alaska, but you might want to look and see if they have a state society, and see if you can get that question answered there.

For your second question, yes, magnetic north moves slowly over time, but the accuracy of the survey does not depend on mag north, or any north for that matter (state plane, geodetic, true, etc.) I can draw a deed plot of the object property and say, 4 adjoiners, and each description for each property could have a different north basis, and different bearings on the same line. I am in a colonial survey state, so I don't know about the public land system and exactly how it works, but I would guess similarly.

Surveys are really controlled by property evidence called for and found (in other words, monuments - a monument could be a stone, a tree, an iron pipe or pin, etc). The monument is "it" so to speak, if it is called for in a deed or on a plat, and has not been moved or disturbed.

The bearings and distances can differ from survey to survey, with modern surveys being very close to one another, and perhaps a couple feet to even hundreds of feet for an ancient survey compared to a modern one. Basically a survey is like putting a big puzzle together, and there are a lot of legal principals based on boundary law that go into it, but even if the two descriptions have different bearings and distances, if they call to a stone marked no. 3 and it is found, stone no. 3 is the corner. This of course is very simplified, and many other factors can come into play.

I hope this makes some sense to you.

Also, you mentioned GPS. Actually, survey grade GPS is accurate to a centimeter plus or minus, but it is still just a tool, and doesn't work well in tree cover or near buildings. You still have to find the monuments, based on a description most likely written before GPS existed. After a corner is GPSed, it is much easier to find the next time.

I guess what I am trying to say is, surveying is more complicated than a guy (or gal) going out and setting up a "transit" and looking through it. Much more than I could possibly explain here.

Thanks for your questions!

jimmler
 

justalayman

Senior Member
Thank YOU for your answers. Very informative.

Do you live anywhere near the University of Notre Dame? Maybe you could come over and give me a demo!!!:D :D Of course I'm kidding. The profession actually sounds more interesting than I had imagined.

Also, you mentioned GPS. Actually, survey grade GPS is accurate to a centimeter plus or minus, but it is still just a tool, and doesn't work well in tree cover or near buildings. You still have to find the monuments, based on a description most likely written before GPS existed. After a corner is GPSed, it is much easier to find the next time.
I never knew it was anywhere close to this. That is actually quite impressive.
I guess what I am trying to say is, surveying is more complicated than a guy (or gal) going out and setting up a "transit" and looking through it. Much more than I could possibly explain here
.
Everybody's job is always easier than their own, or so they think. You know, the grass, the green and all that.

again, thanks for taking the time to school me.
 

efflandt

Senior Member
While GPS in the past had intentional 100 meter variation (known only to the govt) to reduce the accuracy of foreign guided missiles, GPS for surveying is compared by radio to a GPS at a known physical location, so the intentional variation is known very accurately. However, it is high frequency (GHz) easily aborbed by most anything, so it may be hard to get a satellite signal under heavy precipitation or forest cover.
 

jimmler

Member
justalayman said:
Thank YOU for your answers. Very informative.

Do you live anywhere near the University of Notre Dame? Maybe you could come over and give me a demo!!!:D :D Of course I'm kidding. The profession actually sounds more interesting than I had imagined.

I never knew it was anywhere close to this. That is actually quite impressive.
.
Everybody's job is always easier than their own, or so they think. You know, the grass, the green and all that.

again, thanks for taking the time to school me.
You are welcome! ;)

jimmler
 

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