Katrina Chaos

[BlondiePB]

why were the shelters without supplies?

You are supposed to bring supplies for yourself for 3 days.

 

[CdwJava]

All I am saying is that with some planning when there was warning, there should have been less confusion, certanily less than with unexpected events. The local and state government knew the levee's could be breached, why were the shelters without supplies?

As I understand it, all the prepositioned disaster logistical centers and command and control facilities were taken out by the storm. New Orleans' emergency operation center was destroyed or rendered inoperable by the storm.

If there was a lack of preparation in the city, that is something to be dealt with later and certainly has nothing to do with the post-disaster response from state and national providers.

- Carl

 

[CdwJava]

You have valid points, Carl. I still have my tapes of what locals did when Hurricane Andrew hit and cut off the victims from the outside world waiting for the feds to arrive which they finally did and so much later than arriving to these areas.

Perhaps the gov't would be interested in seeing what people did, including law enforcement, while waiting for the Calvery to arrive. It was truly amazing! Yes, this is much bigger a problem. Even President Bush stated that the response was good, but the results were not.

We do emergency and disaster reponse preparedness exercises every year on a MUCH, MUCH smaller scale ... and even these exercises take a great deal of organization and coordination. Those who plan and organize this thing will be debriefing and discussing this event for years to come. And, I am certain that a more coordinated response plan will come from all this - in fact, the organizational outline is already in place at the national level and all the states are re-organizing to come into compliance with the national model.

In fact, had it not been for 9/11 and the subsequent discussion of the possibility of WMD use on American soil, I think you would have seen an even greater delay in the response. Because of programs and procedures the US and state governments have been developing, this response may be even better than it might have been 5 years ago.

It is not easy to coordinate the actions of hundreds of agencies and organizations. It will take a firm command and control system and I am not sure if that is yet in place. But, the stream of vehicles, boats and men and supplies that had mustered on the west side of the Mississippi this morning and entered the city before noon is a good sign that the organization is up and running.

- Carl

 

[rmet4nzkx]

You are supposed to bring supplies for yourself for 3 days.

Right, but places like the superdome and the conventipn center would be logical places to store/stage some of the supplies of water at least when they anticipate a need. These are places that normally serve food on a regular basis and are equiped to take in large shipments for events and should have some makeship storange areas?

But watching Gov Blanko not having answers to the questions put to her with more than assumptions or that she only asked for 1400 national guard and admitting it was the levee's giving way that was their downfall, they thought they had had a close call, who expected the hurricane to hit land in E FL jump PL and get stronger on the other side? They called for evacuation, but people who survived Camile felt they could do it again, but this was bigger. Simulations done by the ACE showed the same destruction form water with III huricaine not long ago, but no changes were made with desaster plans. How can you plan for all possibilities?

 

[rmet4nzkx]

As I understand it, all the prepositioned disaster logistical centers and command and control facilities were taken out by the storm. New Orleans' emergency operation center was destroyed or rendered inoperable by the storm.

If there was a lack of preparation in the city, that is something to be dealt with later and certainly has nothing to do with the post-disaster response from state and national providers.

- Carl

Communications is very key to success or failure in response, unfortunately building a fully redundant communications system that is globally effective is very complicated and expensive, what works in areas with hurricaines is different than areas with earthquakes etc. Here the only reliable communication was sattilite and even the media had difficulty because their vehicles were sometimes stranded because of the flooding. The director of the ambulance services was in telecommunications originally thus had a fairly redundant system for EMS but the political officials communicating with the public didn't have the communications and giving conflicting instructions.

With not knowing who evaccuated and who stayed creates a problem and complicates response. If you mark a house when you evaccuate, it is open to looting, if you mark after the event, it slows response to the least able to get help.

 

[snick77]

some of your points are valid. Carl. Other points are what I would expect from a "rural nor cal cop." I didn't say nor imply that the problems would be "fixed" in a few days versus a few months. as far as pulling out soldiers to help with organization and aid, PLEASE! There are many soldiers over there that aren't doing anything more than babysitting. Take it from a woman who had her fiance killed in a roadside bomb next to a school that he was watching within 3 weeks of his return to his base in Hawaii! And don't think I'm against what we are doing in the mid east. I still support the troops while they are doing their jobs! but that's neither here nor there, Carl!

I'm glad to see that Mr. Bush is admitting that what has been done has not been effective instead of skirting around the issue. I support Bush and I'm a Democrat. I stand behind his decisions, no matter how late they are. Looting is not a new problem. It happens all the the time in times of crisis (L.A. riots, which i saw first-hand unfortunatley, the quake of '89 in the Bay Area, which i saw first-hand, Hurricane Andrew). I do agree that it is not be safe to have FEMA "in the trenches" at this point. But if the Superdome was designated as a place of refuge, why weren't there supplies there for the thousands that were being routed there by their local gov't? I have family that was in the Superdome (prayerfully they are now in Houston en route to northern California) and I was told that no one seemed to be in charge, the dead there are just being crowded in corners of the building.

I do think that 72 hours is enough time to get some forms of definitive action into play, especially seeing as the threat of the levees being breeched was known for years. Thats the problem with America at times....we don't plan ahead, we just react when things happen

 

[CdwJava]

These are places that normally serve food on a regular basis and are equiped to take in large shipments for events and should have some makeship storange areas?

As I understand it, some supplies were stocked there. However! It was originally expected to be temporary housing for 9,000 people to shelter them from the storm - it had not originally been intended as an evacuation center.

Here the only reliable communication was sattilite and even the media had difficulty because their vehicles were sometimes stranded because of the flooding. The director of the ambulance services was in telecommunications originally thus had a fairly redundant system for EMS but the political officials communicating with the public didn't have the communications and giving conflicting instructions.

In CA (and elsewhere) agencies are being given radio systems that have pre-programmed emergency frequencies so that we CAN communicate ... they don't use satellite, but there are numerous repeaters for the state-wide frequencies, and many that are simply line of sight. However, my agency has only two such radios so unless we operate in only two teams during an emergency, communications will still be a problem.

Other points are what I would expect from a "rural nor cal cop."

Careful ... I used to work in a couple of the largest jurisdictions in the state. I chose to move to God's country for family reasons ... but I still have the big city in my blood - and a lot of training in this area that most do NOT have.

I do think that 72 hours is enough time to get some forms of definitive action into play, especially seeing as the threat of the levees being breeched was known for years. Thats the problem with America at times....we don't plan ahead, we just react when things happen

That tends to be human nature. Looking ahead is expensive and politically problematic. Government is reluctant to spend money on a problem that too many people can say may never happen. While the levees were built for a level III storm, and people knew that bigger storms were likely to hit, nobody had the guts to make the decision to sacrifice programs to pay for the improvements.

New Orleans has always been a rather "poor" city in terms of its large underpriveleged population. I had the pleasure of visiting N.O. during Mardi Gras this year, and I met a lot of local police officers ... and local denizens. It has a great deal of charm ... and also a great deal of poverty. I suspect that New Orleans was not as wealthy a city as it could have been. It is also very likely that the corruption that has been historically rampant in the city played a big part in the lack of preparedness as well.

- Carl

 

[rmet4nzkx]

As I understand it, some supplies were stocked there. However! It was originally expected to be temporary housing for 9,000 people to shelter them from the storm - it had not originally been intended as an evacuation center.

In CA (and elsewhere) agencies are being given radio systems that have pre-programmed emergency frequencies so that we CAN communicate ... they don't use satellite, but there are numerous repeaters for the state-wide frequencies, and many that are simply line of sight. However, my agency has only two such radios so unless we operate in only two teams during an emergency, communications will still be a problem.

That tends to be human nature. Looking ahead is expensive and politically problematic. Government is reluctant to spend money on a problem that too many people can say may never happen. While the levees were built for a level III storm, and people knew that bigger storms were likely to hit, nobody had the guts to make the decision to sacrifice programs to pay for the improvements.

- Carl

Temp shelter during storm as opposed to evaccuation center, so they were not counting on many homeless people.

Direct line of sight trunks have their limitations during earthquackes as opposed to hurricanes and flooding.

Hindsight is 20/20.

 

[BlondiePB]

How can you plan for all possibilities?

You can't plan for all the possibilities. As Carl stated, the storage supplies for shelters were destroyed -- an unexpected event. What has not been fixed, even with all the planning and mock disasters, is communication. Having gone to local meetings about this, I always bring up communication to people who are stranded. This will definitely re-write the disaster plans.

I was told to evacuate for Katrina when she was a Cat. 1. My property can withstand a direct hit from a Cat 1 hurricane and at least 20 inches of rain. That's why I did not leave. I do leave for more than a Cat 1 hurricane. It's quite unnerving closing your door and not knowing what you will see upon returning.

 

[rmet4nzkx]

You can't plan for all the possibilities. As Carl stated, the storage supplies for shelters were destroyed -- an unexpected event. What has not been fixed, even with all the planning and mock disasters, is communication. Having gone to local meetings about this, I always bring up communication to people who are stranded. This will definitely re-write the disaster plans.

I was told to evacuate for Katrina when she was a Cat. 1. My property can withstand a direct hit from a Cat 1 hurricane and at least 20 inches of rain. That's why I did not leave. I do leave for more than a Cat 1 hurricane. It's quite unnerving closing your door and not knowing what you will see upon returning.

At least with an earthquake you pretty much know your fate within 30 seconds, we also have a delta system and in some cases, levee's have not been repaired, but the population is rural.

 

[snick77]

And that's the problem, Carl! No one in the gov't ever seems to have (your words) "the guts" to make changes! Of course, seeing as I have family in LA, I have been to Mardi Gras and the French Quarters, but I have also been to the "slums (and I mean SLUMS) of New Orleans."

As a country, we need to take the events of 9/11, Hurricane Andrew, Hurricane Katrina, Hurrican Camille and PLAN AHEAD! I know that this takes money, Carl, but hey, if we can devote millions to other countries, why can't we take some of that money toward future planning in order to not avoid, but try to cushion the blows of these events? 9/11 taught us that we cannot be arrogant to think that we can survive diasters (be it natural diasters or terrorist attacks/threats) without effective planning.

 

[CdwJava]

At least with an earthquake you pretty much know your fate within 30 seconds, we also have a delta system and in some cases, levee's have not been repaired, but the population is rural.

Out where I am we get floods every few years (and mild flooding a couple times a year). We anticipate being cut off for three days at a time when the big floods occur, but everyone in my county expects it and generally prepares for it. What we do NOT have are hurricane force winds and surging tides accompanying the overflowing rivers and levees.

- Carl

 

[BlondiePB]

At least with an earthquake you pretty much know your fate within 30 seconds, we also have a delta system and in some cases, levee's have not been repaired, but the population is rural.

Knowing your fate in 30 seconds sounds like a blessing to me. Something else I find interesting does involve the Corp of Engineers. They, COE, straightened the Mississippi River over there in New Orleans & area, which has caused problems.

The COE did this to the Kissimmee River in FL a very long time ago and were warned not to do it. The straightening of the river turned out to be a huge mistake. The Kissimmee River is now in it's third stage of restoration to it's original flow (as original as possible). You'd think the COE would have learned.

 

[CdwJava]

And that's the problem, Carl! No one in the gov't ever seems to have (your words) "the guts" to make changes! Of course, seeing as I have family in LA, I have been to Mardi Gras and the French Quarters, but I have also been to the "slums (and I mean SLUMS) of New Orleans."

As a country, we need to take the events of 9/11, Hurricane Andrew, Hurricane Katrina, Hurrican Camille and PLAN AHEAD! I know that this takes money, Carl, but hey, if we can devote millions to other countries, why can't we take some of that money toward future planning in order to not avoid, but try to cushion the blows of these events? 9/11 taught us that we cannot be arrogant to think that we can survive diasters (be it natural diasters or terrorist attacks/threats) without effective planning.

I am not arguing against the expenditures or the planning - only that those condemning the current response are only demonstrating their lack of understanding of how these things are done.

More can always be done ... and better planning can always be done. It is always going to be about money and resources.

here's another example ... terrorism funds. We can get funds from the feds to buy all sorts of neat anti-terror and WMD equipment, but the amount of equipment is limited and training is not often included. Just TRY to maneuver in a radiation or bio-suit without training! And much of the equipment for radiation and biohazard response has a shelf life of three to five years! The stuff that my county has is expired, and the funds are not there to replace them!

Prearing for low probability, high risk events is important ... but very, ery costly.

If you are a politician, are you going to cancel a food for the poor program to pay for a levee upgrade that half of your experts are telling you might never be needed? It would take exceptional guts to take the hit for the team (i.e. lose re-election) on such a difficult call. Most politicians won't do that.

On a personal level, how many of us actually have gone out and purchased all the items we KNOW might be needed in an emergency? I KNOW I MIGHT need all those things mentioned previously for survival in an emergency ... but, if I have limited funds, am I going to cancel my cable and sell a car to afford to buy all the stuff I MIGHT need? I see the need for my cable TV and my car right now - the untangible and nebulous emergency that might happen is hard to fathom for most.

Again, it is human nature. And resources (including money) is limited. And when you have political elements of all stripes fighting over limited resources, prioritizing must be made.

This event will spur a year of spending surges for natural disaster planning - maybe two years. But, after that, funding will once again be an issue and the money will be diverted elsewhere. Looking at a half million dollars in expired WMD equipment is enough to make any politican's eyes water.

- Carl

 

[CdwJava]

Knowing your fate in 30 seconds sounds like a blessing to me. Something else I find interesting does involve the Corp of Engineers. They, COE, straightened the Mississippi River over there in New Orleans & area, which has caused problems.

The COE did this to the Kissimmee River in FL a very long time ago and were warned not to do it. The straightening of the river turned out to be a huge mistake. The Kissimmee River is now in it's third stage of restoration to it's original flow (as original as possible). You'd think the COE would have learned.

The story I saw the other day indicated that they were contracted to come in and change the river flow ... it may not have been solely their idea. Apparently there were some other concerns ... shipping would be my guess.

- Carl