Legal Banking Theft

[DebHgn]

What is the name of your state? KENTUCKY

Fifth Third Bank and Other's are up to ripping consumer's off! BEWARE

Let me set this up: I got my statement today and was SHOCKED to find I was overdrawn just over $800.

I called 5/3 customer service today and spoke to a lady called Rebecca. As we worked through just my last statement I kept asking her if I were overdrawn why did they not decline my debit card. She didn't know. She put me on hold and 10 minutes later she came back and said that is was a courtesy that was initiated by my local branch since we were just good customers to save us the embarrassment of having our card declined! (I value myself and my name, but not that much!) I responded with how did she figure it was a courtesy to me. Of course this was only after she tried to scold me for not checking my account everyday!

We went through one day's charges and 3 should have cleared with only one going into over draft. However since they take the largest to the smallest after the first one was processed the others all were assessed a $30 fee the next day! I asked why they did that and her response was that they figure people wanted their house payments, rent, etc., to be paid first. When I asked what difference did it make, at the end of the day the overdraft was going to be the same, she had no answer. Well, it does not take a brain surgeon to figure it is so they can charge more fee the next day.

She also confirmed that a $6 per day overdraft fee was assessed for Sat. Sun. and Holidays, even though we are unable to bank that day even if we did want to make a deposit.

I asked if they were basically loaning me the money until I made a deposit, since I was such a good loyal customer and she refused to use the word loan, she just said, "We paid it for you." Calling it a loan would make it fall under Truth In Lending laws, and the banks don't want that to happen.

I'm not sure if I emailed you before or after I went back through the year of my bank statements. But from April until today they have charged my account a grand total of $2352.00!!

All of this started back in April when I did make a mistake and I did overdraw my account less than $100, with 3 different transactions, one check and 2 ATM/Debits. Of course the check was the largest so they took that out first cause my charges the next day to be $90 instead of $30. I have gone from there until now and if that one incident had not happened I should have right at $2000.00 in the bank! I would love to fax you even just my last statement so that you can actually see how this operates.

If I refuse to pay these charges, I will be reported to ChexSystem and will not be able to open a bank account, credit destroyed, etc.

On September 15 there were Congressional Hearings on this matter with the Banking and Finance Committee. From my research I have found that banks last year made 14 BILLION dollars with these fees last year. (how much was that tax cut Bush gave to help stimulate the economy)? Talk about the Fleecing of America, I would say this rates way up on the list.

This is not just hurting me personally, it's hurting our entire nation! Less money to spend, loss of jobs, loss of income taxes, Federal, State and local. Not counting the unemployment from our government for those out of a job. I know this sounds like I'm really carrying it to the limit, but just think about it.

I feel that this is the worse kind of scam that is going right now and it's hurting everyone!
I wrote a letter to our Mayor and he too had the same problem with one of the banks here in town.

I hope you take a few minutes to search the Internet on the subject "bounce loans" and please help inform the public.

Feel free to contact me,
Debbie Hagan
[email protected]

 

[hanjenden]

AK................WOW! That is incredible. I have overdraft protection with my bank, but you have to have a savings account that any overdraft amount can be deducted from and moved in to your checking account. The fee is only $5 for a protected overdraft. I find it hard to believe that your bank's policy of doing this is even legal.

 

[Veronica1228]

Oh, boo-hoo! Learn how to balance a checkbook and reconcile your statements. Nothing your bank has done is illegal. All of their fees should be listed in their pricing brochures located in any branch lobby. It is not their problem if you do not read the information that is disclosed to you.

With internet banking, banking by phone, countless branches, monthly statements and ATM receipts, you can't figure out how much money you have in the bank?

Give me a break!!!

 

[JETX]

please help inform the public.

Public service announcement:
"Don't be an idiot!! YOU have an OBLIGATION to know how much money is in your account BEFORE you debit or write checks!! It is NOT the banks job. If you are an idiot and can't keep track of your spending and bank balance, you have NO business having an account!!
Go back to high school and learn how to balance a bank account."

Consider the public 'informed', thank you.

 

[DebHgn]

Public service announcement:
"Don't be an idiot!! YOU have an OBLIGATION to know how much money is in your account BEFORE you debit or write checks!! It is NOT the banks job. If you are an idiot and can't keep track of your spending and bank balance, you have NO business having an account!!
Go back to high school and learn how to balance a bank account."

Consider the public 'informed', thank you.

You must be the idiot and have problems with comprehending. I will try to keep this as simple as possible but you may have to read it twice since you are so slow. But stay with it and you might get the concept.

Day 1:
You have a balance in your checkbook of $100.
Stop at store, use Debit card, spend $60.
Stop for gas, use Debit card, spend $10
Have lunch use Debit, spend $15
Stopped at ATM for cash for the kids tomorrow and get $10
Quiz: what is balance? sorry, time's up? $5
That evening husband tells you he had to stop for gas and used Debit card and fill up his SUV on his way home from work that evening and it cost $45!

Balance? $-40.

Well dangit, you have overdrawn the account. But are somewhat complexed because for some reason it let husband get $45 dollars in gas and didn't decline the card and you were home hours before he was.

During the night the bank charges your account -$6 for overdrawing.

Day 2 You think your balance should be -$76 because you know they are going to charge you $30 for the gas debit and $6 for overdrawing. Your write all this down in your register.
You go to bank make a deposit of $200 and note it in checkbook. Balance should be $124.00. Is it??? Well before you go crazy trying to figure it out, the answer is NO. Why you ask? Because the bank takes the largest to the smallest out of your account while you are sleeping all snug in your bed. So you didn't have one overdrafting transaction you had 3. The 2 $10 ones and the $15. The bank took out the $60 and $45 out first. So that means even before the bank opened and you got your $200 deposit in there they bank already had claims to $90 for 3 transactions on day 1, $6 for overdrawing on Day 1, and another $6 for starting out Day 2 in the red. So they are going to take $102 of that $200 dollars you are going to deposit. So in your little check register that you are correctly adding and subtracting in you have your balance as $124 it's really $58!

200
-40 cause husband spent 45 for gas and you only had 5 in there
-90 only the two largest transactions cleared.
-6 for overdrawing on Day 1
-6 for starting overdrawn on Day 2 (strange)
That leave a balance of $58.00

You think you have $124 because no one from the bank has called or emailed me to tell me my balance, and I didn't have time to call or check online this morning, soccer practice and all. We are still on Day 2 in case you have forgotten. The check register is all nice and neat and not addition or subtraction mistakes.

Husband asked how much is in the bank and you tell him $124. He says "good" because he's got to get some stuff done to his truck today. Oil changed, tires rotated etc. Probably about 4 different stops. Doesn't want to take the checkbook, he hates using that thing and he always brings home ATM and Debit receipts for me to record in that nice neat register.

Still on Day 2: Husband leave and does the following:
Stops at ATM for cash $60
Oil Change Debit $20
Tires rotated Debit $10

Brings receipts home and you record them in check register all nice and neat and make sure the subtraction is right on target. Your balance is: $34. But the bank has different ideas about you money. They feel that you only have $-32. Now since the bank decided to set you up with the new concept called bounce protect, not to be confused with overdraft protection. Husband didn't have Debit card declined all day.

Heck, the first cash withdrawal right at the local branch should have been rejected. Which at that point he would have called and said, Hey I thougth you said we had $124 in the bank. You would be in shock, get online to see what had happened.

Day 3: Saturday and you don't go anywhere and spend no money, husband had gotten cash yesterday if we needed anything.

Day 4: Sunday, just church and playing with kids at home.

Day 5: You think you have $34 in the bank. But in reality you start the day off -$146. Last night, while you were sleeping the bank moles were at work. Those little boogers put their claim on $90 for all 3 transactions on Day 2 when husband was doing his thing, and then another $24 for overdrawing on Day 2, and being overdrawn on Saturday (Day 3) and Sunday (Day 4) and starting Day 5 (Monday) overdrawn.


Now do you see how quickly and how extreme this problem is. I didn't have any idea they would let me get cash, use my ATM or even clear a check if the money wasn't there.
I hope this wasn't too difficult for you to understand. After about a month of this you can get in deep and not even know it. There will be days you are in the black but not as much in the black as you thought.

 

[DebHgn]

Oh, boo-hoo! Learn how to balance a checkbook and reconcile your statements. Nothing your bank has done is illegal. All of their fees should be listed in their pricing brochures located in any branch lobby. It is not their problem if you do not read the information that is disclosed to you.

With internet banking, banking by phone, countless branches, monthly statements and ATM receipts, you can't figure out how much money you have in the bank?

Give me a break!!!

You must be the idiot in this argument then: Not even sure why you are on such a high horse other than you are the one who steals my money!

I'll post this for you too:


You must be the idiot and have problems with comprehending. I will try to keep this as simple as possible but you may have to read it twice since you are so slow. But stay with it and you might get the concept.

Day 1:
You have a balance in your checkbook of $100.
Stop at store, use Debit card, spend $60.
Stop for gas, use Debit card, spend $10
Have lunch use Debit, spend $15
Stopped at ATM for cash for the kids tomorrow and get $10
Quiz: what is balance? sorry, time's up? $5
That evening husband tells you he had to stop for gas and used Debit card and fill up his SUV on his way home from work that evening and it cost $45!

Balance? $-40.

Well dangit, you have overdrawn the account. But are somewhat complexed because for some reason it let husband get $45 dollars in gas and didn't decline the card and you were home hours before he was.

During the night the bank charges your account -$6 for overdrawing.

Day 2 You think your balance should be -$76 because you know they are going to charge you $30 for the gas debit and $6 for overdrawing. Your write all this down in your register.
You go to bank make a deposit of $200 and note it in checkbook. Balance should be $124.00. Is it??? Well before you go crazy trying to figure it out, the answer is NO. Why you ask? Because the bank takes the largest to the smallest out of your account while you are sleeping all snug in your bed. So you didn't have one overdrafting transaction you had 3. The 2 $10 ones and the $15. The bank took out the $60 and $45 out first. So that means even before the bank opened and you got your $200 deposit in there they bank already had claims to $90 for 3 transactions on day 1, $6 for overdrawing on Day 1, and another $6 for starting out Day 2 in the red. So they are going to take $102 of that $200 dollars you are going to deposit. So in your little check register that you are correctly adding and subtracting in you have your balance as $124 it's really $58!

200
-40 cause husband spent 45 for gas and you only had 5 in there
-90 only the two largest transactions cleared.
-6 for overdrawing on Day 1
-6 for starting overdrawn on Day 2 (strange)
That leave a balance of $58.00

You think you have $124 because no one from the bank has called or emailed me to tell me my balance, and I didn't have time to call or check online this morning, soccer practice and all. We are still on Day 2 in case you have forgotten. The check register is all nice and neat and not addition or subtraction mistakes.

Husband asked how much is in the bank and you tell him $124. He says "good" because he's got to get some stuff done to his truck today. Oil changed, tires rotated etc. Probably about 4 different stops. Doesn't want to take the checkbook, he hates using that thing and he always brings home ATM and Debit receipts for me to record in that nice neat register.

Still on Day 2: Husband leave and does the following:
Stops at ATM for cash $60
Oil Change Debit $20
Tires rotated Debit $10

Brings receipts home and you record them in check register all nice and neat and make sure the subtraction is right on target. Your balance is: $34. But the bank has different ideas about you money. They feel that you only have $-32. Now since the bank decided to set you up with the new concept called bounce protect, not to be confused with overdraft protection. Husband didn't have Debit card declined all day.

Heck, the first cash withdrawal right at the local branch should have been rejected. Which at that point he would have called and said, Hey I thougth you said we had $124 in the bank. You would be in shock, get online to see what had happened.

Day 3: Saturday and you don't go anywhere and spend no money, husband had gotten cash yesterday if we needed anything.

Day 4: Sunday, just church and playing with kids at home.

Day 5: You think you have $34 in the bank. But in reality you start the day off -$146. Last night, while you were sleeping the bank moles were at work. Those little boogers put their claim on $90 for all 3 transactions on Day 2 when husband was doing his thing, and then another $24 for overdrawing on Day 2, and being overdrawn on Saturday (Day 3) and Sunday (Day 4) and starting Day 5 (Monday) overdrawn.


Now do you see how quickly and how extreme this problem is. I didn't have any idea they would let me get cash, use my ATM or even clear a check if the money wasn't there.
I hope this wasn't too difficult for you to understand. After about a month of this you can get in deep and not even know it. There will be days you are in the black but not as much in the black as you thought.

 

[DebHgn]

Checkout :

John M. Floyd Associates
http://www.jmfa.com/

BSG Financial
http://www.bankstrategy.com/

These are just two of many companies who market these deceptive transactions to banks. See what they really think about you, the banking customer.

 

[DebHgn]

Okay, I am not a lawyer, but I am a banking officer at one of the largest banks in the country, and I am very knowledgable about banking laws. Let me just reiterate that what has been said so far is absolutely correct.

Didn't take long, I was right. You are a participate in stealing money from consumers. You didn't deny anything I said, only tried to blame it on me, just like a theiving banker.

 

[JETX]

You must be the idiot in this argument then: Not even sure why you are on such a high horse other than you are the one who steals my money!

You must be the idiot and have problems with comprehending. I will try to keep this as simple as possible but you may have to read it twice since you are so slow. But stay with it and you might get the concept.

Deb, your 'example' explains your confusion.... and ignorance!!!

There are two forms of debit card transactions: PIN-based (also known as direct debit) and signature-based (also known as deferred debit).

A PIN-based transaction requires you to enter a personal identification number (PIN) to complete your purchase, while a signature-based transaction requires you to sign your name. With PIN-based transactions, the money is generally withdrawn from your account immediately.

However, with signature-based transactions, the money is typically removed within two to three days. Although some banks issue separate cards for each type of transaction, many banks issue one card which allows you to perform either type of transaction, PIN or signature. If your debit card allows for signature-based transactions, it will have a credit card logo, such as Visa or MasterCard, and you can use it anywhere these credit cards are accepted.

So, with that, lets look at a shorter version of your incorrect scenario.
1) You have $100 in your account.
2) You stop at the store and purchase $80 worth of groceries. You SIGN the receipt. Just like with a check, your bank still shows you with $100 balance, but you really only have $20 available.
3) Your spouse buys gas, using the debit card, for $20.00 (PIN). Your bank balance shows $80.
4) You stop and buy gas, using the debit card, for $20.00 (PIN). Your bank balance shows $60.
5) Have lunch, use PIN debit, $15.00. Your bank balance shows $45.00.
6) Next day, you shop for jeans, use PIN debit, $30.00. Your bank balance shows $15.00.
7) Problem!!! The next day, your SIGNED debit 'ticket' (for the $80 groceries) hits your bank.... you are now $65.00 OVERDRAWN!!!

That is how a debit account can become overdrawn!!!

For more, go to:
http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/cc/20020710a.asp
http://www.aba.com/Press+Room/010804DOVEDEBITSTUDY.htm
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/MellodyHobson/story?id=86076&page=1
http://www.star.com/?go=consumers.pinAndSigDebit
http://www.vantagecard.com/solutions/debit.html

Now do you see how quickly and how extreme this problem is. I didn't have any idea they would let me get cash, use my ATM or even clear a check if the money wasn't there.

Yep, that explains it all. You are simply 'debit card ignorant!'.

I hope this wasn't too difficult for you to understand. After about a month of this you can get in deep and not even know it.

Except you SHOULD have known it if you had taken the time to READ the paperwork that the bank sent you with the card(s)!!

And yes, we accept your apology.

 

[DebHgn]

IGNORANCE???? Then I guess 95 percent of our country falls there.

All of this kind of behavior from our banking institutions was not taking place 15 years ago when I opened my account. Heck we had just got phone banking! When I opened my account, you couldn't use your Debit card other than with a PIN. There was no option. Even now, not all POS machines give the option to use PIN or Signature. So why would I automatically know any of this???

But none of this matters, because the real problem was the "Bounce Loan" aka courtesy protection. Nor does it condone the largest to smallest. If the bank are going to cover it anyway, with the courtesty, what difference does it make? MONEY to make up for lost revenues that way. Not making so much on interest income anymore. After reading the sells pitch these companies, John M. Floyd, etc, it's clear as a bell what the objective is.

I will thank you for informing me about this, but apologize??? Not a chance, I have nothing to apologize for.

 

[Veronica1228]

Didn't take long, I was right. You are a participate in stealing money from consumers. You didn't deny anything I said, only tried to blame it on me, just like a theiving banker.

That's correct I am a banker, and damn proud of it!

And while it has been a couple of years since I have worked with Retail customers, let me tell you that I have heard every excuse in the book for why an account is overdrawn. The bottom line is that it is YOUR responsibility to know how much money you have in your account BEFORE you use your debit card or write a check. If that means actually talking to your husband, then do it.

Go ahead and blame me, or your bank, or technology, or the Son of Sam. If this was 20 years ago, and there were no check cards, would you blame your bank if you and your husband each wrote a check for $50 against an account that has a balance of $75? What would be your argument then? Would you ask your bank, "How could you let my husband write a check for $50 when I had already written a check for $50 earlier in the day?" I have a feeling you would.

Look, just grow up and learn how to handle a bank account. If you can't do that then close it out and keep your money under the mattress. I'm sure you would then blame Sealy's Posturepedic for your money problems, but that's a subject for a different posting board.

 

[Who's Liable?]

"You think you have $124 because no one from the bank has called or emailed me to tell me my balance, and I didn't have time to call or check online this morning, soccer practice and all."

wow... I never knew it was the banks repsonibility to call me or that I would have to take time out of my day to make sure my family's financial well being was taken care of...

 

[GranSuz]

Deb - Not much Money

Hi Deb, We are some of the FEW that don't have a LOT of money in our accounts, and we have to be right on top of things. I also am Bank DUMB I guess, because I agree with you. I deposit my pay check (yes, I live check to check) on Friday (and I got an expensive lesson) and it doesn't post to my account until mid-night Monday Night. Excuse me - The Bank has my money and I can't write checks until Tuesday!
And YES, Before all this great technology, A person could deposit money and tell the teller to please post it to your account so you wouldn't overdraw your account - and they would. Looks like technology has worked for the BANKS huh?
My Previous Bank paid my $500.00 auto pmt.twice. I wrote 1 check and thought my Loan Co. had debited my bank account and I called, wrote, fussed, cussed etc. and after numerous calls to the out-of state Bank Home Office, trying to get a copy of the item shown on my statement with no check #, finally figured out the bank did it. They also had charged me with over $300.00 insf. fees, because of it, and getting my money took over 2 years and going to the Bank President, threatening to find out who to call and file a complaint on them. They were telling me I HAD WAITED TOO LONG! My file folder is almost an inch thick with copies of - ME WAITING TOO LONG. Makes you wonder doesn't it?

 

[JETX]

A person could deposit money and tell the teller to please post it to your account so you wouldn't overdraw your account - and they would. Looks like technology has worked for the BANKS huh?

Then you are simply going to LOVE the latest scheme by the banks. It is called "Check 21" (for the "Check Clearing for the 21st Century Act").

The banks have lobbied for this 'favorite' project and as of this month (10/28) will be able to eliminate ANY float in a paper check. They can now convert that paper check into an 'electronic copy' and process it immediately. The consumer agency's are concerned that this is going to cause a HUGE jump in bounced checks.... and HUGE overdraft 'income' for the banks. In my opinion, this pretty much says it all: "The checks you write will clear faster, but banks aren't required to speed up the time when they make funds available from the checks that you deposit."

For more on this, go to:
http://www.consumersunion.org/finance/ckclear1002.htm
http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2004/09/04/biz_biz1checkwhat.html
http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/chk/20040924a1.asp

 

[rebootit]

Find a credit union and screw the banks. Reason I went CU was the bank pulled this crap after I made a CASH deposit and it took two "business days" to clear and cost me $195.00 in "uncollected funds" fees because I used my debit card while I guess they checked with the federal deposit bank to make sure the cash I deposited was real. I now make a deposit even 30 seconds before they close the doors at night and the money is IN MY ACCOUNT ready for any transaction that comes in. I will never use a FDIC bank again for anything. Oh when I asked the bank about the $195.00 they gave me a $25.00 "courtesy credit" since I was such a long time (10 year) customer. And to the "banker" who sent the messages to this board, SCREW YOU AND THE SHIP YOU CAME IN ON.