Magnuson Moss Warranty Act and the EPA

[Zigner]

I think the problem is the same as with many new users. You appear to be wanting the advisers to agree with you and fight them if they don't.

 

[PayrollHRGuy]

15 U.S. Code § 2302
(c)Prohibition on conditions for written or implied warranty; waiver by CommissionNo warrantor of a consumer product may condition his written or implied warranty of such product on the consumer’s using, in connection with such product, any article or service (other than article or service provided without charge under the terms of the warranty) which is identified by brand, trade, or corporate name; except that the prohibition of this subsection may be waived by the Commission if—
(1) the warrantor satisfies the Commission that the warranted product will function properly only if the article or service so identified is used in connection with the warranted product, and
(2) the Commission finds that such a waiver is in the public interest.

The Commission shall identify in the Federal Register, and permit public comment on, all applications for waiver of the prohibition of this subsection, and shall publish in the Federal Register its disposition of any such application, including the reasons therefor.

OK I stopped counting on the FTC for answers. This is the section of the law that is in question. (c) is the critical part. They are now were ordered under the consent decree to void the warranty if any other makers tuner was used. That would be a violation of the above, no matter what was written in the warranty unless they give the tuner away (which they don't, it is a $300+ item) or (1) or (2) happens.

I can find no record of the Commission doing what is required in the last paragraph.

 

[PayrollHRGuy]

Do these products cause the vehicle to exceed the legal emissions limits? If so, they would be illegal in all states.

No they do not. They can be made to but they do not.

 

[PayrollHRGuy]

I think the problem is the same as with many new users. You appear to be wanting the advisers to agree with you and fight them if they don't.

I don't want anyone to agree with me. I would like an explanation of something in law I don't understand.

 

[Zigner]

I don't want anyone to agree with me. I would like an explanation of something in law I don't understand.

Fair enough.

 

[justalayman]

First, the court’s required HD to take this stand. They had no choice so if you challenge their position, you will have to figure out how to invalidate the court’s order. Otherwise HD is going to stand on the mandate imposed by the courts and (rightfully) refuse to violate the order.

Second, if the timers cause excessive emissions, they are unlawful and the installer is at risk of prosecution.

Third, if the result of a tuner is increased power output (I’m presuming that is the intended intent actuslly). any engine or transmission failure can be blamed on the higher than design forces applied to them. The system is designed to operate at or below the max output of the engine as manufactured by HD. Any increase in hp exposes the driveline to conditions it was not designed for and as such, would rightfully void claims within the driveline.

 

[PayrollHRGuy]

First, the court’s required HD to take this stand. They had no choice so if you challenge their position, you will have to figure out how to invalidate the court’s order. Otherwise HD is going to stand on the mandate imposed by the courts and (rightfully) refuse to violate the order.

100% agreed, and that is the heart of my question. Assuming my research into the FTC having not made a done what is required by the section of the law quoted above would the Mag Moss be grounds to challenge a refused warranty claim.

Second, if the timers cause excessive emissions, they are unlawful and the installer is at risk of prosecution.

No they don't in and of themselves. They are simply a tool that allows the technician to tune the bike for new parts including parts that are completely legal.

Third, if the result of a tuner is increased power output (I’m presuming that is the intended intent actuslly). any engine or transmission failure can be blamed on the higher than design forces applied to them. The system is designed to operate at or below the max output of the engine as manufactured by HD. Any increase in hp exposes the driveline to conditions it was not designed for and as such, would rightfully void claims within the driveline.

This would be a very hard defense for HD as they sell parts that do increase the HP and Torque of the bikes. It is a not insignificant part of their business. Stage IV kit.

 

[justalayman]

OK I stopped counting on the FTC for answers. This is the section of the law that is in question. (c) is the critical part. They are now were ordered under the consent decree to void the warranty if any other makers tuner was used. That would be a violation of the above, no matter what was written in the warranty unless they give the tuner away (which they don't, it is a $300+ item) or (1) or (2) happens.

I can find no record of the Commission doing what is required in the last paragraph.

This has nothing to do with whether hd gives the item away or not. That section involves the voiding of a warranty if the consumer uses non-specified parts or non-specified repair facilities. It cannot require a consumer use a specific part of repair facility unless the repair services are free to the consumer.

It can require repair parts meet or exceed oem specs though. A device that alters the operating conditions of the motor does not meet oem specs.

And the use of the tuner does violate (1) in your most recent quote. The use of the tuner causes the bike to not function properly, at least as far as HD and their design specs are concerned. I would also argue that (2) applies as well as it is in the best interest that something that alters the emissions output of the vehicle is in the public to be prohibited.


And you seem to be missing the point that this was all predicated by the epa because HD was installing tuners that caused excessive emissions. While you say they don’t necessarily, apparently the epa experienced those involved did and acted under that knowledge.

You are also missing the point that the only motorcycles involved are those having tuners that don’t have carb or epa cert. motorcycles that have tuners that have carb and epa cert will not invalidate the warranty.

 

[Taxing Matters]

The heart of this is that the Magnuson-Moss bill, though it does not state so directly, would not protect acts of the consumer in altering the product in a way that would cause the product to violate federal or state law (e.g. violate emissions standards). The EPA determined that the use of non-compliant tuning devices were resulting in higher than allowed emissions and thus violating the law. The point of the Act was to attack anti-competitive actions by manufacturers, not provide cover for illegal alterations of products.

 

[PayrollHRGuy]

This has nothing to do with whether hd gives the item away or not. That section involves the voiding of a warranty if the consumer uses non-specified parts or non-specified repair facilities. It cannot require a consumer use a specific part of repair facility unless the repair services are free to the consumer.

But that is exactly what they are doing.

It can require repair parts meet or exceed oem specs though. A device that alters the operating conditions of the motor does not meet oem specs.

And the use of the tuner does violate (1) in your most recent quote. The use of the tuner causes the bike to not function properly, at least as far as HD and their design specs are concerned. I would also argue that (2) applies as well as it is in the best interest that something that alters the emissions output of the vehicle is in the public to be prohibited.

And you seem to be missing the point that this was all predicated by the epa because HD was installing tuners that caused excessive emissions. While you say they don’t necessarily, apparently the epa experienced those involved did and acted under that knowledge.

You are also missing the point that the only motorcycles involved are those having tuners that don’t have carb or epa cert. motorcycles that have tuners that have carb and epa cert will not invalidate the warranty.

HD doesn't seem to be trying to void any warranties. They and their dealer network make lots of money on aftermarket parts. My point and question is that this consent decree has basically created a situation that at least in part the act of congress tried to stop, ie. requiring that your only use genuine [insert company name here] parts or have your warranty voided.

 

[justalayman]

But that is exactly what they are doing.

. No it’s not. It’s prohibiting the additonal part from being used. The “specific part” requirement applies to something like where you didn’t use an official HD oil filter. You can use any oil filter but it must meet oem specs.

Forgive my ignorance for I’m not certain how a tuner, as spoken of in this thread, is used so I’ll give two situations.

If the tuner is replacing an oem part, it doesn’t meet the spec requirement because it changes the oem control setting.

If it is an added part, then the law doesn’t apply because it is not a replacement part.



HD doesn't seem to be trying to void any warranties. They and their dealer network make lots of money on aftermarket parts. My point and question is that this consent decree has basically created a situation that at least in part the act of congress tried to stop, ie. requiring that your only use genuine [insert company name here] parts or have your warranty voided.[/QUOTE]

 

[PayrollHRGuy]

They are requiring you use an HD tuner.

 

[justalayman]

They are requiring you use an HD tuner.

Who is?

And why is a tuner needed?

 

[PayrollHRGuy]

"Who is?" HD per the consent decree.

"And why is a tuner needed?" Pretty much any modification to the intake, engine or exhaust requires a tune. Says so in probably about 100 places in the HD Parts & Accessories Catalog and their website.

 

[justalayman]

Unless HD is installing tuners as a warranty repair, they can put any rules on the parts they install they wish to. Unless the individual shop warrants the bike after the installation of a tuner, the customer likely just lost their warranty.