Michigan Governor bans sale of gardening items

[quincy]

The intent of the Governor’s Order is pretty clear. If an activity is not necessary to sustain or protect life, that activity is temporarily suspended.

 

[Zigner]

Fair enough, but the order is poorly written. Or, perhaps, it's just a politician's way of saying something without saying it.

In any case, I believe that there is enough ambiguity in how it's written that it would cause any enforcement to be difficult without further clarification (assuming somebody wants to push it).

 

[westside]

The governor is an idiot.

 

[quincy]

The governor is an idiot.

Actually, Governor Whitmer is far from an idiot. She has been relying on nationally recognized medical experts (including pandemic experts) to make decisions that are best for the residents of Michigan.

 

[Taxing Matters]

I think it is ambiguous for a reason.

And I think the reason is that it was drafted fairly hastily. As one who has drafted regulations and proposed legislation I can attest that drafting rules with precision takes some time; rules drafted in a rush often contain errors and ambiguity that the drafters did not intend but simply did not catch because they lacked the time for kind of review that would refine the drafting to weed out at least most of those problems. But the courts will try as much as possible to interpret the language to give effect to what the legislature or executive agency/official issuing the rules intended in that kind of circumstance.

 

[quincy]

And I think the reason is that it was drafted fairly hastily. As one who has drafted regulations and proposed legislation I can attest that drafting rules with precision takes some time; rules drafted in a rush often contain errors and ambiguity that the drafters did not intend but simply did not catch because they lacked the time for kind of review that would refine the drafting to weed out at least most of those problems. But the courts will try as much as possible to interpret the language to give effect to what the legislature or executive agency/official issuing the rules intended in that kind of circumstance.

I am pretty sure that those who have listened to Governor Whitmer know exactly what she intended. There are a few Michigan mayors who are using the ambiguity to allow for some currently non-essential services to operate on a limited basis. Whitmer is unlikely to challenge the mayors who do so if they are obeying the fundamental intent of the Order (e.g., allowing for lawn service to keep weeds under control if social distancing is maintained but prohibiting landscaping).

 

[westside]

Actually, Governor Whitmer is far from an idiot. She has been relying on nationally recognized medical experts (including pandemic experts) to make decisions that are best for the residents of Michigan.

Like a lower case Cuomo, she's been late to the party at every step. One needs only to look at her neighbor to the south for lessons in how to handle a crisis like this one.

 

[quincy]

Like a lower case Cuomo, she's been late to the party at every step. One needs only to look at her neighbor to the south for lessons in how to handle a crisis like this one.

I disagree.

It is difficult (and not all that helpful) to compare states because of different geography and population concentrations and who makes up the populations.

The areas in Michigan most affected by the virus include an international airport (to where two of the original cases were traced) and a large urban city (Detroit) and a large homeless population and a lot of people who are living in poverty.

Here is a link to the history of Michigan’s response to Covid-19 up to the present:
https://www.bridgemi.com/michigan-health-watch/coronavirus-tracker-what-michigan-needs-know-now

Please note how early Michigan requested federal assistance in supplying Michigan’s hospitals with necessary testing, personal protection equipment, respirators and ventilators.

 

[PayrollHRGuy]

The keywording is...

Close areas of the store—by cordoning them off, placing signs in aisles, posting prominent signs, removing goods from shelves, or other appropriate means—that are dedicated to the following classes of goods:

No place does it say it is illegal to sell the goods. There is nothing that says they can't be delivered, shipped or picked up at the curb. If the Governor wanted to stop the sale she should have put that in the order. If she is now having it enforced in a way to ban the sales she is just screwing the large brick and mortar stores.

It seems stores like Walmart and Lowes could simply set up a <50,000 sq ft tent in the parking lot and sell all they want.

 

[quincy]

The keywording is...

Close areas of the store—by cordoning them off, placing signs in aisles, posting prominent signs, removing goods from shelves, or other appropriate means—that are dedicated to the following classes of goods:

No place does it say it is illegal to sell the goods. There is nothing that says they can't be delivered, shipped or picked up at the curb. If the Governor wanted to stop the sale she should have put that in the order. If she is now having it enforced in a way to ban the sales she is just screwing the large brick and mortar stores.

It seems stores like Walmart and Lowes could simply set up a <50,000 sq ft tent in the parking lot and sell all they want.

Actually, the key words are “temporary requirement to suspend activities that are not necessary to sustain or protect life.”

It is not illegal to order whatever products you want to order. For example, I ordered for delivery a bunch of toys from Target. These toys were not necessary to sustain or protect life (although they have made the stay-at-home order more bearable for my kids).

The goal of the order is to limit in-store sales to essential items only. This helps limit the time a shopper is in the store potentially exposing others to the virus and being exposed to the virus.

One additional note: To order items for pickup from a store that sells groceries, you must make an appointment. The appointments for pickup orders are generally several days later than the day you place your order. And what you can order from the store is limited to items on the list provided by the store.

 

[FlyingRon]

If we don't put tomato plants in now, we won't have tomatoes in the summer, which means we're going to have to spend more time shopping in public.

 

[cbg]

Okay, so I think the order is stupid at least as written.

But as I understand it, a customer could go up to a clerk, tell them what was needed, and the clerk go over to the garden center, pick up the items requested, and bring them back to the customer. Selling the items is not prohibited. Buying the items is not prohibited. What's prohibited is having the customer in the cordoned off area.

Is that right? I'm genuinely confused.

 

[Zigner]

Actually, the key words are “temporary requirement to suspend activities that are not necessary to sustain or protect life.”

That is the heading, not the actual order.

Within the order, the workers are already allowed be be working as "critical infrastructure workers".

 

[quincy]

Okay, so I think the order is stupid at least as written.

But as I understand it, a customer could go up to a clerk, tell them what was needed, and the clerk go over to the garden center, pick up the items requested, and bring them back to the customer. Selling the items is not prohibited. Buying the items is not prohibited. What's prohibited is having the customer in the cordoned off area.

Is that right? I'm genuinely confused.

No, that is not correct. Only essential items are being sold in-person in the stores. If someone wants to buy nonessential items, they should look at online sources.

We apparently were better prepared than you, FlyingRon. We purchased all of our plants a few weeks ago.

 

[commentator]

I wish someone in our state would do something about the garden centers, which have become the state fair, local entertainment centers for literally THOUSANDS of people in our state. They usually aren't buying, they're just amusing themselves by wandering through the garden center. They're not looking for hardware, and this governor is attempting to make a suggestion that emphasizes the unwise way people are finding self-amusement venues. We have had the same sort of problem with the pretty weather and the local "carry out only" barbeque venues. There were over 100 people sitting on the grass, on playground equipment, in cars, very close together in the beautiful weather. Our county police force has had to come out and asked people not to sit there and eat their lunches, because it isn't anybody's definition of social distancing. So they all, it seemed, I thought while going by, went over to the garden center at the local Lowe's, Wal-mart, etc. The idea they are trying to "hurt the big box stores" is ridiculous.