Out Of State Title Issues

[ThomasInOhio]

I live in Ohio. I bought a used car, without lien, from a WV dealership. I received the Pennsylvania title and paperwork a couple weeks ago and went to title the car at the BMV. I was informed that the dealership mishandled the title paperwork. The title, which is in the name of the previous seller, has the name of the dealership on the back and is notorized even though the seller's signature is missing.

That raises my first question. Shouldn't the title be in the dealership's name and be transferred to me, rather than the title being in the name of the person they bought the car from and being transferred to the dealership? The same dealership is listed as the First Lien Favor on the Pennsylvania title. From looking at dates on the paperwork, it looks like they sold me the car before they paid off the lien (basically to themselves).

I contacted the dealership. Within an hour the dealership magically had a Power of Attorney completed by the previous owner and they wanted me to overnight the title to them so they could sign the back of the title. Working with this dealership was not a pleasant experience for us, so I was hesitant to send the title to them and still am. I asked to have a copy of the signed and notorized power of attorney form email to me to review. They have yet to provide that document to me and informed me that I would be contacted by their comptroller. I am requiring all communication to be conducted through email to avoid any confusion or people not remembering what was said.

My questions are this. Were any laws broken with this transaction? What other options do I have other than sending the dealership the title? Could I request power of attorney to sign the back myself? Shouldn't the title be made out in the dealership's name and be transferred to me on the back of the title?

 

[FlyingRon]

In the first case, if the dealership had purchased the car, they indeed should not be jumping the title. It's possible that they were selling it on consignment (unlikely) then the seller (or the dealer with their power of attorney) could sign it over to you.

If the dealer really bought the car from the titled owner, you're darn well tootin' that they broke the law. This was an attempt to dodge some tax and fees. Frankly, the dealership is under no obligation to show you the power of attorney. Nor is the original owner obliged to do anything with regard to giving you such. Frankly, it would likely be most expeditious to allow the dealer to get you viable title under their current sham. Then once you know your state has titled it in your name, you can go complain to the WV revenooers about the dealer fraud.

 

[justalayman]

Dealers in any state I’m familiar with are allowed to “pass through” a title without putting the title in their name. If that is the case in P.A., the dealership assignment is typical. In other words, short of the sellers signature missing, nothing appears to be incorrect.


From what I can find, PA does provide for a dealer reassignment or pass through.


I suggest you send the title and let them sign it. Make sure you take photocopies of it prior to sending it back

Of course, if you don’t trust them, drive to the dealership and let them sign it while you wait.


I believe the dealer will have to provide the poa document. I would think that would have to accompany the title. It would be registered with the title due to the named owner not signing the title but their assigned representative.

 

[FlyingRon]

PA law has nothing to do with this, the dealer was in West Virginia. It is not legal in West Virginia to do this.
You are correct that had this dealer been in Pennsylvania, it would have been sufficient to obtain a POA from the seller (after jumping through a few more hoops), but WV law (as many other states) does not permit this.

 

[ThomasInOhio]

Dealers in any state I’m familiar with are allowed to “pass through” a title without putting the title in their name. If that is the case in P.A., the dealership assignment is typical. In other words, short of the sellers signature missing, nothing appears to be incorrect.


From what I can find, PA does provide for a dealer reassignment or pass through.


I suggest you send the title and let them sign it. Make sure you take photocopies of it prior to sending it back

Of course, if you don’t trust them, drive to the dealership and let them sign it while you wait.


I believe the dealer will have to provide the poa document. I would think that would have to accompany the title. It would be registered with the title due to the named owner not signing the title but their assigned representative.

You are absolutely correct. A 'wet ink', aka original not photocopied, POA document will have to be included in the documentation. I did a lot of calling to DMVs yesterday. I found out that in addition to the notary not actually 'witnessing' the signature of the seller before stamping and signing, he also did not verify the Odometer reading. A notarized affidavit also need to be completed and included in the documentation. I've decided to send the title back to them as soon as I can get several notarized copies of the title.

 

[ThomasInOhio]

PA law has nothing to do with this, the dealer was in West Virginia. It is not legal in West Virginia to do this.
You are correct that had this dealer been in Pennsylvania, it would have been sufficient to obtain a POA from the seller (after jumping through a few more hoops), but WV law (as many other states) does not permit this.

May I ask what you are basing this on? In addition to the title, I received a WV Reassignment Supplement. The County Clerk of Courts in Ohio seemed to be OK with everything except not having a signature on the PA title. If a law was broken I would more than love to know. I'm not doubting you, I'd just like to see it in print somewhere. I called the WV Division of Motor Vehicles yesterday and they didn't seem to think that a law was broken, but the dealer has failed to provide sufficient documentation to me to title the vehicle within the 60 days that WV allows.

 

[FlyingRon]

BMV isn't there to enforce WV laws. Read 17A-4 of the WV code. While they are exempted from the registration requirements (can use dealer tags), they are required to do the titles.

 

[justalayman]

17A-4-4. Transfers to dealers and others.

When the transferee of a vehicle is a dealer who holds the same for resale and lawfully operates the same under dealer's plates, such dealer shall not be required to obtain a new registration of said vehicle or be required to forward the certificate of title to the department, but such dealer upon transferring his title or interest to another person shall execute and acknowledge an assignment and warranty of title upon the certificate of title and deliver the same not later than sixty days from date of sale to the person to whom such transfer is made.

from my reading they do allow a reassignment

.

 

[FlyingRon]

They're supposed to enter the transfer to them as a second assignment, but is required to technically take the assignment to them and then assign to the other and can send it all in at the same time. There's space on the WV titles to do this (not sure about the fact that this was a PA title to begin with).

What they aren't allowed to do is pretend they weren't ever a party to the transaction and execute what appears to be a sale from the person they got the car from directly to the ultimate buyer.

 

[justalayman]

Nobody ever said they were pretending to not be involved. The dealer reassignment makes sure the dealer is listed in the chain of owners. It simply makes it so a dealer does not have to file for a title in their name if it is for resale.

The dealer has to sign the title just as any seller would.


Since the buyer is an Ohio resident, the dealer could either send the title to Ohio or simply deliver it to the buyer. If the purchase is not using borrowed funds where a lien must be registered, the deliver the title directly to the buyer. At least that’s been my experience.


The fact it was a P.A. title doesn’t change anything. The dealer bought the car from whomever it listed as owner. They were apparently P.A. residents. The West Virginia dealer signs the reassignment section on the title and hands it to the buyer. Buyer files for a new title in his home state.

 

[ThomasInOhio]

Nobody ever said they were pretending to not be involved. The dealer reassignment makes sure the dealer is listed in the chain of owners. It simply makes it so a dealer does not have to file for a title in their name if it is for resale.

The dealer has to sign the title just as any seller would.


Since the buyer is an Ohio resident, the dealer could either send the title to Ohio or simply deliver it to the buyer. If the purchase is not using borrowed funds where a lien must be registered, the deliver the title directly to the buyer. At least that’s been my experience.


The fact it was a P.A. title doesn’t change anything. The dealer bought the car from whomever it listed as owner. They were apparently P.A. residents. The West Virginia dealer signs the reassignment section on the title and hands it to the buyer. Buyer files for a new title in his home state.

That's what is sort of confusing. Which state guidelines are applicable. I believe you are correct. The dealer has to sign the title on the back as the purchaser. They applied for and I received the reassignment. Unfortunately, the notary at the dealership wasn't able to do their job and failed at verifying the odometer reading and making sure the Seller signature was completed before they notarized the title.

The dealership stopped communicating with me after I asked for the POA form to be forwarded to me through email so I could verify it. I sent the owner/president of the dealership an email this afternoon and copied the general manager asking for some answers. If I do not hear back from them tomorrow, I'll start filing complaints with the WV SOS and DMV as well as the Ohio SOS and any other government agency that I can complain to.

 

[FlyingRon]

Again, the dealer has no obligation to SHOW you anything. His only obligation to you is to deliver a title that you can use to take title at the BMV. Allow him to do that. Then you can seek your pound of flesh with the regulators. If your goal is to get title to the car, this is the really only practical course.

Now if the goal is to rescind the sale, then you might try this tug of war you're heading towards but understand that most car dealers won't give back the sale money without a fight and you may end up having to go to court in West Virginia.

Presumably, you bought the car in WV? Then WEST VIRGINIA law is the one that applies.

 

[ThomasInOhio]

Again, the dealer has no obligation to SHOW you anything. His only obligation to you is to deliver a title that you can use to take title at the BMV. Allow him to do that. Then you can seek your pound of flesh with the regulators. If your goal is to get title to the car, this is the really only practical course.

Now if the goal is to rescind the sale, then you might try this tug of war you're heading towards but understand that most car dealers won't give back the sale money without a fight and you may end up having to go to court in West Virginia.

Presumably, you bought the car in WV? Then WEST VIRGINIA law is the one that applies.

That's completely fine if the dealership does not want to send me proof of POA. However, they should communicate that intent to me.

 

[justalayman]

That's completely fine if the dealership does not want to send me proof of POA. However, they should communicate that intent to me.

If the dealership signs on behalf of the seller (utilizing the poa) I would suspect the Ohio BMV would require the poa be submitted with the title. It is what makes the sellers signature by the dealer on behalf of the seller legal. Otherwise it would look like the dealer just signed the sellers name without authorization

 

[justalayman]

Again, the dealer has no obligation to SHOW you anything. His only obligation to you is to deliver a title that you can use to take title at the BMV. Allow him to do that. Then you can seek your pound of flesh with the regulators. If your goal is to get title to the car, this is the really only practical course.

Now if the goal is to rescind the sale, then you might try this tug of war you're heading towards but understand that most car dealers won't give back the sale money without a fight and you may end up having to go to court in West Virginia.

Presumably, you bought the car in WV? Then WEST VIRGINIA law is the one that applies.

Actually, whatever Ohio will accept is what applies.