Please help re: vacation time

[doc2b]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Michigan

Smooth sailing all summer, then this...

My husband gave his ex-wife notice of his plans to excercise his extra summer parenting time starting next week (he gets up to seven days uninterupted). They share custody now, him having the kids Wednesday, Thursday and Friday overnight (she has them during the day, he has them from 6pm until 9am next day), as well as all day Saturday and night, half of Sunday.

He sent the email about our plans on June 30, 2008, so it's been over a month and a half notice. She just sent him an email today that she wants to use Wednesday, August 20 as one of her vacation days and keep the kids overnight (knowing that we are planning to leave early Thursday morning due to a 10-11 hour car ride to get where we're going). She went on to say that he isn't allowed to have her daytime hours for his vacation time, only overnights.

Just yesterday, she sent a separate email stating that she made a dentist appointment for the kids on the 26th that he has to take the kids to because she will be down south on vacation all week. If she's already planned a vacation, and knew we were going to be gone all week, too, what's my husband to do? He's going to reschedule their appointment for a different day after we get back, but what's the deal about not using her parenting time when she's not going to be in the state anyway? They have a ROFR for anything over 2 hours...

Here's what the JOD states about summer vacations (note, there's nothing anywhere about how many days notice you should give the other party ):

It is further ordered that each party may choose seven non-consecutive overnights with the children during the Summer. However, Plaintiff maynot exercise more than three overnights during parenting time earmarked for Defendant, and Defendant may not exercise more than four overnights during parenting time earmarked for Plaintiff.​

His ex wife has used a couple of her vacation days on Saturdays, and has taken the kids at 9am to start her day, so there is an obvious double standard. He and I are afraid that if she takes Wednesday as a vacation day, she will keep the kids late to frustrate our vacation plans. He knows there is nothing he can do to keep her from using that as a vacation day since there is nothing in the JOD about giving notice, but when should he reasonably expect the kids to be returned since he is using the next day as a vacation day? Also, is she right about daytime hours, or is this just a glitch in the verbage? I don't want him to get into trouble for disobeying the CO, but it doesn't seem right that she can use his daytime hours for a vacation and he can't do the same...

Sorry so lengthy, but I'd rather give you all a few too many details than not enough.

Thanks in advance!

 

[profmum]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Michigan

Smooth sailing all summer, then this...

My husband gave his ex-wife notice of his plans to excercise his extra summer parenting time starting next week (he gets up to seven days uninterupted).

When does the vacation time for Dad start next week as per the notice he gave?

They share custody now, him having the kids Wednesday, Thursday and Friday overnight (she has them during the day, he has them from 6pm until 9am next day), as well as all day Saturday and night, half of Sunday.

so his parenting time on wed starts at 6 pm?

He sent the email about our plans on June 30, 2008, so it's been over a month and a half notice. She just sent him an email today that she wants to use Wednesday, August 20 as one of her vacation days and keep the kids overnight (knowing that we are planning to leave early Thursday morning due to a 10-11 hour car ride to get where we're going).

again did Dad specify Aug 20 as his vacation day?

She went on to say that he isn't allowed to have her daytime hours for his vacation time, only overnights.

ok.. silly.. but ok..

Just yesterday, she sent a separate email stating that she made a dentist appointment for the kids on the 26th that he has to take the kids to because she will be down south on vacation all week. If she's already planned a vacation, and knew we were going to be gone all week, too, what's my husband to do? He's going to reschedule their appointment for a different day after we get back, but what's the deal about not using her parenting time when she's not going to be in the state anyway?

because she is a petty ex.

They have a ROFR for anything over 2 hours...

Here's what the JOD states about summer vacations (note, there's nothing anywhere about how many days notice you should give the other party ):

It is further ordered that each party may choose seven non-consecutive overnights with the children during the Summer. However, Plaintiff maynot exercise more than three overnights during parenting time earmarked for Defendant, and Defendant may not exercise more than four overnights during parenting time earmarked for Plaintiff.​

His ex wife has used a couple of her vacation days on Saturdays, and has taken the kids at 9am to start her day, so there is an obvious double standard.

The CO seems to talk about overnights for vacation, but is not clear as to what time of the day the vacation overnight starts. Common sense would dictate that a 9 am start to the day and Mum has clearly interpreted it that to mean "9 am in the morning" for her vacation day. You could let Mum know you are picking them at 9 am on xxx day (which I am assuming in Thu Aug 21?) of the vacation overnight or you could stick to the 6 pm pick as outlined for regular parenting time. in which you cannot take the 11 hr road trip.

He and I are afraid that if she takes Wednesday as a vacation day, she will keep the kids late to frustrate our vacation plans. He knows there is nothing he can do to keep her from using that as a vacation day since there is nothing in the JOD about giving notice, but when should he reasonably expect the kids to be returned since he is using the next day as a vacation day?

He can specify a reasonable time, say 9 am and remind Mum that is the time she picked up the kids for her vacation.

Also, is she right about daytime hours, or is this just a glitch in the verbage? I don't want him to get into trouble for disobeying the CO, but it doesn't seem right that she can use his daytime hours for a vacation and he can't do the same...

The CO is not clear with regard to pick up and drop off times, having said that she would awful silly if she insisted on a later pick up time thereby disrupting the kids holiday with Dad..


I would let Dad tell Mum that he will pick up the kids at 9 am or whatever since you have a long trip just as Mum has on her previous vacation days and leave it at that.

 

[Farfalla]

You said that " (he gets up to seven days uninterrupted). " the verbiage you posted is for non-consecutive visits. What in the paperwork gives him the right to seven uninterrupted days? What are those words? Please provide that?

Father and mother seem to be talking about apples and oranges.

 

[majomom1]

You said that " (he gets up to seven days uninterrupted). " the verbiage you posted is for non-consecutive visits. What in the paperwork gives him the right to seven uninterrupted days? What are those words? Please provide that?

Father and mother seem to be talking about apples and oranges.

I was confused on that too... but I think they have to use their own time in conjunction with the vacation time. ie... he cannot have 7 days of HER time. Depending on whether he is the Plantiff, or Defendant - he can only use 3 or 4 of her days to make the 7 days. This is to keep him from taking his days, + 7 full days after that, for vacation.

We need to know which one he is and from there I think technically HE notified first, so that would most likely prevail.

 

[doc2b]

When does the vacation time for Dad start next week as per the notice he gave?

His email states that he is starting his vacation on August 21, 2008. He was under the impression that he would be excercising his parenting time on Wednesday since she didn't ask for it as vacation time (until today), so we'd be able to start out early. I forgot to mention, in this same email in June, he asked her to please give him as much notice as possible for her vacation days so we could make plans for the summer...3 days is just great

so his parenting time on wed starts at 6 pm?

Yes. Their CO states that vacation time has precedence over their regularly scheduled parenting time, too.

again did Dad specify Aug 20 as his vacation day?

Yes.

because she is a petty ex.

Ya think ?

The CO seems to talk about overnights for vacation, but is not clear as to what time of the day the vacation overnight starts. Common sense would dictate that a 9 am start to the day and Mum has clearly interpreted it that to mean "9 am in the morning" for her vacation day. You could let Mum know you are picking them at 9 am on xxx day (which I am assuming in Thu Aug 21?) of the vacation overnight or you could stick to the 6 pm pick as outlined for regular parenting time. in which you cannot take the 11 hr road trip.

what if she doesn't give them up? I'm assuming there's nothing that can be done...except clearing things up in court later.

He can specify a reasonable time, say 9 am and remind Mum that is the time she picked up the kids for her vacation.

He planned on that, he's just trying to word it "nicely"

The CO is not clear with regard to pick up and drop off times, having said that she would awful silly if she insisted on a later pick up time thereby disrupting the kids holiday with Dad..


I would let Dad tell Mum that he will pick up the kids at 9 am or whatever since you have a long trip just as Mum has on her previous vacation days and leave it at that.

I'll pass it along-thank you!

 

[doc2b]

I was confused on that too... but I think they have to use their own time in conjunction with the vacation time. ie... he cannot have 7 days of HER time. Depending on whether he is the Plantiff, or Defendant - he can only use 3 or 4 of her days to make the 7 days. This is to keep him from taking his days, + 7 full days after that, for vacation.

We need to know which one he is and from there I think technically HE notified first, so that would most likely prevail.

That's right...they have to use their days in conjunction...IE, he can't use seven of her days, he has to use four of his to make seven. But, he can use three in a row at the beginning or end, or take two at the front end of his vacation, and one at the backend (for example). He is the Plaintiff, so he gets 3 of her days. She has the kids Sunday, Monday and Tuesday overnight, and says that he only gets to use those days for his vacation. Since he has her watch them instead of having daycare during the days he has the kids overnight but works all day, she is saying he is not entitled to the daytime hours on Wednesday, Thursday and Friday along with her Sunday afternoon, Monday and Tuesday. How in the world did this wording get so screwed up?!?

He did notify first, but he didn't specify the day of the 20th because it is his regualar parenting time...and we're under the impression that he can't deny it to her since there is no stip in the CO that says she has to give any kind of reasonable notice.

 

[LdiJ]

I was confused on that too... but I think they have to use their own time in conjunction with the vacation time. ie... he cannot have 7 days of HER time. Depending on whether he is the Plantiff, or Defendant - he can only use 3 or 4 of her days to make the 7 days. This is to keep him from taking his days, + 7 full days after that, for vacation.

We need to know which one he is and from there I think technically HE notified first, so that would most likely prevail.

Technically the wording is contradictory. 7 non-consecutive nights means 7 nights that are NOT in a row. Yet, the wording goes on to say that one may not take more than 3 nights earmarked for the other, and the other may not take more than 4 overnights earmarked for the other one. That gives the impression that the intent could be different.

In my opinion this is one that needs to be taken back to court for a clarification.

 

[doc2b]

Technically the wording is contradictory. 7 non-consecutive nights means 7 nights that are NOT in a row. Yet, the wording goes on to say that one may not take more than 3 nights earmarked for the other, and the other may not take more than 4 overnights earmarked for the other one. That gives the impression that the intent could be different.

In my opinion this is one that needs to be taken back to court for a clarification.

I agree, hubby agrees...I'm sure his ex would agree too. His attorney was sooo "excited" that she worded it this way-I think she called it "bulletproof". What a doofus...

In the meantime, is it going to look bad if we take this vacation? My hubby follows the CO to a T and we took a week long vacation last year with no problems...so did his ex.

He's tired of getting manipulated, so doesn't let her bully him, but the wording IS so confusing, if it could be a problem later...well, I guess no vacation for us and the kiddos.

 

[majomom1]

Technically the wording is contradictory. 7 non-consecutive nights means 7 nights that are NOT in a row. Yet, the wording goes on to say that one may not take more than 3 nights earmarked for the other, and the other may not take more than 4 overnights earmarked for the other one. That gives the impression that the intent could be different.

In my opinion this is one that needs to be taken back to court for a clarification.

I agree it is contradictory! I had to read it 3 times and STILL wasn't 100% sure! Clarification is definitely needed. And yes OP, there may be nothing you can do about it, except take it up in court.

I do believe that Dad's notice, a month ago, will prevail. Mom cannot just take that day for herself just because there is no time frame for notification. The doctor appointment will further show Mom's pettiness.

 

[LdiJ]

I agree, hubby agrees...I'm sure his ex would agree too. His attorney was sooo "excited" that she worded it this way-I think she called it "bulletproof". What a doofus...

In the meantime, is it going to look bad if we take this vacation? My hubby follows the CO to a T and we took a week long vacation last year with no problems...so did his ex.

He's tired of getting manipulated, so doesn't let her bully him, but the wording IS so confusing, if it could be a problem later...well, I guess no vacation for us and the kiddos.

I would take the vacation. I would remind her that he gave her notice of this vacation on June 30th (and she honestly could have forgotten about that since its been almost two months).

 

[majomom1]

I would take the vacation. I would remind her that he gave her notice of this vacation on June 30th (and she honestly could have forgotten about that since its been almost two months).

I say take the vacation too. Hopefully Mom will be a big enough person and admit if she forgot...

 

[doc2b]

Thank you all for your replies...it's appreciated!

 

[stealth2]

And yes OP, there may be nothing you can do about it, except take it up in court.

No may about it, there is nothing OP can do about it at all. Including take it up in court.

 

[doc2b]

No may about it, there is nothing OP can do about it at all. Including take it up in court.

I think she meant hubby going to court later to clarify...I know better than to think "I" can do anything about any of it

 

[stealth2]

I think she meant hubby going to court later to clarify...I know better than to think "I" can do anything about any of it

Yes, it's a matter of semantics. However, when the person who's searching for information from other threads comes across your being told you need to take it to court, it propagates the belief that the spouse has the right to do so. Which, we know, is untrue.