Question about a Bargain and Sale Deed with Covenant against Grantor's acts

[SPROUTLADY123]

Hi, hopefully someone can help me.

Hello, my friend is an 82 year old woman and in 1999 she went to a lawyer to have a document drawn up. Her daughter just gave me the document asking "What does this mean?"

Top of document says This Indenture, made the etc.etc etc. between MY FRIEND indicating she's Party of the first part and Her Daughter, Her Son, and her two grandchildren. as Joint Tenants with Right of Survivorship.

party of the second part. Witnesseth, that the party of the first part in consideration of Ten dollars paid by the party of the second part does hereby grand and release unto the party of the second party, the heirs or successors and assigns of the party of the second part forever.

All the certain plot, piece of parcel of land (then it gives the addresses and all the geographical details of the premises.

THEN there is a paragraph that says.

"Subject to a life tenancy in (my 82 year old friend's name), She will pay all expenses of running the house. She will collect the rent for the second floor apartment. Subject to a tenancy of the first floor occupied by her son (gives his name. FYI, the son lives in the basement with his wife and never paid a dime's rent while living in the basement for the past 20 years.

On the back of this document on the bottom it says

BARGAIN AND SALE DEED with covenant against grantor's acts

Title No. (this is blank)

Name (the 82 year old )

To: The son, the daughter and the two grandchildren as Joint Tenants with Right of Survivorship.

My 82 year old friend's daughter doe s not understand what this document means. I told her "your mom turned over the house to you , your brother who lives in the basement, and your two children. She can live in the house until she dies, pays all the bills, and gets to live there. Your brother will still live in the basement even though it says on the document, that he lives on the first floor and never contributed a dime.

The guy who lives in basement for 20 years without paying a dime knows about this document, went nuts and yelled "When my mother dies, I'm entitled to HALF this house, not one fourth". Nobody can make me move, nobody can sell this house and I won't leave"

So what exactly is going on here. Am I right in assuming that she transferred the deed to these 4 people (is this what the words "Joint Tenants with Right of Survivorship" means?

Oh, when I looked up Lot and Block info on the computer (this is in NYC by the way) the house is in the name of the 82 year old woman. No other name appears as owner.

Thank you kindly if someone can answer. The guy who lives in the basement with his wife and they pay no rent for 20 years, well they really think they will get HALF of the house when the mom dies.

Thanks so much

Sproutlady123

 

[FlyingRon]

Your understanding is pretty much correct. This is a deed with a life tenancy reserved. The two children and two grandchildren are the "remainderman." All hold an equal undivided interests in the property (i.e, the brother owns 1/4). Whether he paid rent or not is immaterial. There's a strong possibility the deed was not recorded (or else it would likely be indexed on the web site).

The fact that no ownership percentages were listed means all who are listed get an equal share. Joint tenancy can't have unequal shares in most places anyhow. The "with right of survivorship" means that when one of the joint tenants die, that persons share gets transferred to the others (it's just like they were struck off the deed). Of course, any tenant can break the joint tenancy at anytime and change it to tenancy in common. Without the right of survivorship, when a person dies, his share goes not to the other tenants but to whoever is the heir(s) (based on the will or intestate succession laws if there is no will).

That being said, deeding properly like this is almost always ill-advised.

 

[SPROUTLADY123]

The deed was recorded

To Flying Ron:

Would you believe that I just now found that you replied to me.

So I completely understand what you said. I was given all the papers and yes indeed this Bargain Sale Deed was registered, recorded, notarized, etc.

So how come when I look up lot and block, it just indicates that the 82 year old is the sole owner? Am I to understand that after the 82 year old passes the house will be left to the 4 people? The guy in the basement, the adult daughter and the daughter's two adult children? So four people inherit the house?

I have a feeling that after the older woman passes, the guy in the basement (with his wife) will move up to the first floor and take it over. Can they do this? The reason I ask is that the adult daughter of the 82 year old asked me to come here and find some answers. She doesn't like the lawyer who drew up the Bargain and Sale deed so she figured I would come here and ask this question for her.

I told her 'What if your brother moves up to the first floor and moves in with his wife'. She then replied "Oh he can't do that". I said 'why not, who is going to stop him?"

So I told her "When your mother dies, you need to bring this Bargain and Sale deed to a lawyer and he will tell you what to do.

The guy in the basement feels entitled to half the house and he says he has a lawyer. He has no money, does not work and where on earth would he get money for a lawyer. I think they want him out of the basement because he's a free loader.

And there are two elderly people who live in the upstairs apartment who pay the rent on time to the 82 year old and get a receipt every month. Who do they pay rent to after the 82 year old passes. The adult daughter said she is the executrix and has power of attorney so the rent would go to her. But if 4 people own the house, well, you see the quandry here?

Can you please advise? Much appreciated

Thanks much

 

[FlyingRon]

I've lost some of the context but if the "guy in the basement" is one of those people listed as being granted joint tenancy with right of survivorship, he certainly can move upstairs.

 

[LdiJ]

To Flying Ron:

Would you believe that I just now found that you replied to me.

So I completely understand what you said. I was given all the papers and yes indeed this Bargain Sale Deed was registered, recorded, notarized, etc.

So how come when I look up lot and block, it just indicates that the 82 year old is the sole owner? Am I to understand that after the 82 year old passes the house will be left to the 4 people? The guy in the basement, the adult daughter and the daughter's two adult children? So four people inherit the house?

I have a feeling that after the older woman passes, the guy in the basement (with his wife) will move up to the first floor and take it over. Can they do this? The reason I ask is that the adult daughter of the 82 year old asked me to come here and find some answers. She doesn't like the lawyer who drew up the Bargain and Sale deed so she figured I would come here and ask this question for her.

I told her 'What if your brother moves up to the first floor and moves in with his wife'. She then replied "Oh he can't do that". I said 'why not, who is going to stop him?"

So I told her "When your mother dies, you need to bring this Bargain and Sale deed to a lawyer and he will tell you what to do.

The guy in the basement feels entitled to half the house and he says he has a lawyer. He has no money, does not work and where on earth would he get money for a lawyer. I think they want him out of the basement because he's a free loader.

And there are two elderly people who live in the upstairs apartment who pay the rent on time to the 82 year old and get a receipt every month. Who do they pay rent to after the 82 year old passes. The adult daughter said she is the executrix and has power of attorney so the rent would go to her. But if 4 people own the house, well, you see the quandry here?

Can you please advise? Much appreciated

Thanks much

He feels entitled to 1/2 of the house because there are just two children of your mother, you and he. He doesn't understand that a will could make that different, or that your mother could have done something like she did to make that different. He is likely going to make things very difficult until someone in authority makes it clear to him that its different. Even if someone in authority makes him realize that its different, he is likely going to believe that he has been ripped off for the rest of his life.

As far as the rent from the elderly couple renting the upstairs apartment is concerned, whoever is the executor of the estate will need to collect that rent and hold it in the estate until the estate is settled and distributed.

 

[SPROUTLADY123]

Hi. Thanks for responding. The 82 year old is not my mom. I'm just friends of the family. And believe me, the daughter (sister of the guy in the basement) has said "He cannot move on the first floor'. Now I read that you indicate that "yes indeed he can". OMG, there is going to be SOME fight when the you know what hits the fan.

Why the 82 year old made this Bargain and Sale thing is beyond anyone's imagination. I think she wanted to put her grandchildren on the house (which is exactly what she did) and when her son (the guy in the basement) found out he went nuts and said 'NOT GONNA HAPPEN". He also said 'My father said this house would be mine, I would always have a place in it (the mother has wanted to sell it for years but her son won't leave the basement). He lives there, doesn't do a thing and his wife works and they pay no rent. Yeah, he does a few odd jobs around the house and they pay the cable bill but that's it. For over 15 years now, rent free. And after his mom dies he and his wife can just move upstairs?? Really?

The daughter of the 82 year old (who is now living on the first floor with the mom) has said "When my mom dies I am not living in the same house as my brother, he's nuts" I said "but what if you leave and he moves up from the basement"? She said "He can't do that, we'll just rent this first floor and I'll go live somewhere else"

And now you say he most certainly can move from the basement to the first floor?

She's not going to believe this.

Oh brother

Thanks much

 

[justalayman]

No, the rent doesn't get held for anybody. The transfer is already complete so the property is not an asset of the estate. Each of the 4 owners is entitled to 1/4 of the rent and each of the 4 are also responsible for 1/4 of the costs to maintain the property.

The executor has no right to touch the money from the tenants, at least by their appointment as executor.

 

[SPROUTLADY123]

No, the rent doesn't get held for anybody. The transfer is already complete so the property is not an asset of the estate. Each of the 4 owners is entitled to 1/4 of the rent and each of the 4 are also responsible for 1/4 of the costs to maintain the property.

The executor has no right to touch the money from the tenants, at least by their appointment as executor.

I'm getting two completely different answers here. One says the executor holds the rent until the estate is settled and the other person says the rent doesn't get held for anybody. So who is right? And how does the elderly couple pay the rent to 4 people. Especially if the guy in the basement demands ALL the rent because he thinks he's entitled to it.

You see, I'm one half of the elderly couple who lives upstairs. I am friends with the landlord (even the guy in the basement (we are cordial to each other). The landlord is my friend who is 82 and she lives on the first floor with her 56 year old daughter. The daughter is the one who had me ask these questions. The daughter has no clue what to do when her mom passes. The daughter's two children (well I don't know if they will give up their share of the house, I mean WHO gives up any shares in a house right?)

So the daughter and I went out to breakfast the other day and we talked and she gave me all the legal papers and asked me to come here (I had gone on another board in October) but back then I wasn't sure if these papers were registered, recorded and notarized. I am now sure they were. So this Bargain and Sale deed is a legal document.

Oh, I asked the daughter this morning "does your brother know what your mother did and that all of you get 1/4?" She said 'yes and he's furious and won't accept it'

So she wants to move out soon after her mom passes because she's afraid of the brother.

So essentially, when the 82 year old passes (and don't get me wrong, she's my friend and I hope she lives 20 more years), but if and when she does pass, right after the funeral her daughter will move out and it's my opinion that the guy in the basement will move right up into the apartment.

So I told her 'Well, I've been giving your mother the rent and I get a receipt for the rent and I've been doing it for 2 years". I told her "Because you are the executrix of her estate and have power of attorney, when and if she passes, I'll give you the rent and you can do with whatever you want to do with it, pay the house expenses, taxes, heating bills, etc." She said 'that's fine, because we want to rent the first floor" and between your rent and the people who rent the first floor, that will allow us to pay the bills of the house until or whenever we decide to sell it".

I then said 'But what if your brother moves into the first floor"? She then said "Oh he can't do that'

And then I come here and there are two very different opinions.

Since I don't know real estate law, exactly what does one do (after the landlord passes),(when they have these legal papers), do they go to an attorney and ....what does the attorney do?

See? This is what she wants to know. I'm kind of curious myself because my husband and I love living here, we finally have some peace and we are too old to move. And no one here has leases. In this neighborhood everything is done without a lease. I lived around the corner for 25 years and when they sold the house, my friend had the rooms right on the second floor so we grabbed them and we are all friends. So that's the whole story. I know eventually she will pass away but thankfully she's healthy as a horse and we all get along famously. But I know when she passes, there is going to be SOME war.

Thanks if anybody can get this right.

Much appreciated.

 

[justalayman]

SPROUTLADY123;3310360]I'm getting two completely different answers here. One says the executor holds the rent until the estate is settled and the other person says the rent doesn't get held for anybody.

You are getting 2 different answers. One of them is wrong but it is not me.

Once property is transferred by deed it no longer belongs to whom it was once owned. Given your statements concerning the deed, it is no longer hers but she is simply life tenant. That means when she passes, there is nothing to do with the property since it has already been assigned new ownership. They are who will be entitled to any rent. The executor has no right to touch the money. It does not belong to the estate.

Only property owned by a decedent is considered when probating the estate. It is no longer your friends property. She has a right to possess it for the remainder of her life (the life tenancy which includes the requirement she maintain the home and pay taxes and such) but she does not own it any longer. She does have a right to rent out the property and collect the rent due. That too is part of the life tenancy.

but anyway, that means when it comes time to probate her estate, the house will not be part of the action as she does not own it.

And how does the elderly couple pay the rent to 4 people. Especially if the guy in the basement demands ALL the rent because he thinks he's entitled to it.

that does become a problem, especially if nobody is granted the authority of receiving the rent for the group.

You see, I'm one half of the elderly couple who lives upstairs. I am friends with the landlord (even the guy in the basement (we are cordial to each other).

I surely do not envy your position. It sounds like you will end up in a hornets nest of problems.

The daughter is the one who had me ask these questions. The daughter has no clue what to do when her mom passes

well, she needs to take care of her mother first. After that what she has to do is nothing unless she chooses to. If the mother has any estate to speak of, somebody should probate the estate or it it is of minimal value, run it through a small estate administration.

Oh, I asked the daughter this morning "does your brother know what your mother did and that all of you get 1/4?" She said 'yes and he's furious and won't accept it'

he has no choice regardless how much he wants to scream and holler.

So she wants to move out soon after her mom passes because she's afraid of the brother.

understandable

So essentially, when the 82 year old passes (and don't get me wrong, she's my friend and I hope she lives 20 more years), but if and when she does pass, right after the funeral her daughter will move out and it's my opinion that the guy in the basement will move right up into the apartment.

he has that right. Basically, as joint tenants, they all have equal rights of use and possession of the property with nobody's rights exceeding the others.

So I told her 'Well, I've been giving your mother the rent and I get a receipt for the rent and I've been doing it for 2 years". I told her "Because you are the executrix of her estate and have power of attorney, when and if she passes, I'll give you the rent and you can do with whatever you want to do with it, pay the house expenses, taxes, heating bills, etc." She said 'that's fine, because we want to rent the first floor" and between your rent and the people who rent the first floor, that will allow us to pay the bills of the house until or whenever we decide to sell it".

well**************



since there are 4 owners, and speaking of the 4, how old are the younger owners?


selling a house with 4 owners is not simple unless they all agree. Any of the owners can file a suit to partition the property where you seek the courts intervention in the matter. Basically if the parties cannot agree on a resolution, the courts force one on them which is sell the thing (generally at auction) and the money is split between the owners.

I then said 'But what if your brother moves into the first floor"? She then said "Oh he can't do that'

Oh yes he can.

Since I don't know real estate law, exactly what does one do (after the landlord passes),(when they have these legal papers), do they go to an attorney and ....what does the attorney do?

takes a lot of their money? Seriously, if ownership has transferred, I don't see what an attorney is going to do for anybody.

See? This is what she wants to know. I'm kind of curious myself because my husband and I love living here, we finally have some peace and we are too old to move. And no one here has leases. In this neighborhood everything is done without a lease. I lived around the corner for 25 years and when they sold the house, my friend had the rooms right on the second floor so we grabbed them and we are all friends. So that's the whole story. I know eventually she will pass away but thankfully she's healthy as a horse and we all get along famously. But I know when she passes, there is going to be SOME war.

I surely hope your friend outlives her children, for your sake.

 

[SPROUTLADY123]

I completely understood everything that you said. You say she has already transferred ownership to the 4 people right? Then how come when I look up the lot and block it only indicates the 82 year old as the property owner? If there was a transfer, wouldn't the 4 people be there as the owners.

I checked this week and only the 82 year old is listed as the property owner. No one else.

I was under the impression that when one looks up lot and block and sees whoever is listed as the owner of the premises, then THAT person is indeed the owner.

Am I mistaken?

And thanks SO much for all of your answers. I just am still not sure who owns this house because of the lot and block issue.

I checked the legal papers. The bargain and sale paper was recorded and notarized and signed and the lawyer's name is on it and he signed it so it's verified right?

So if the transfer was indeed made and the four of them (and the daughter's adult children are 35 years old and 32 years old respectively), why aren't all four of them (daughter, brother, and two adult children of the daughter), why aren't THEY listed as owners of the property?

Thanks so much

 

[SPROUTLADY123]

Oh, forgot to add one thing. If the house was indeed transferred to the 4 people, shouldn't all 4 of them have copies of this deed? I don't think they do. I think the daughter has the legal papers.

I remember 3 years ago (before I moved upstairs), the old lady wanted to sell but the son made such a fuss and he wouldn't sign something and he said "if you sell this house, you'll never see me again, I'm never moving out of this house, blah blah" Well, she backed off and then I moved upstairs and things are fine NOW because she is still among us.

Thanks again.

 

[justalayman]

one thing I just realized; you didn't provide your state.


where are you looking up this ownership? I know of no states where you can look up an owner as what shows ownership is a study of the chain of deeds over the history of the property. If you are seeing the owner listed somewhere, I can only guess it is at a tax office or some such entity. That does not show ownership necessarily although typically an owner is listed on those records. Since your friend in still liable for the taxes, it would not be unusual for a person in her situation to be listed as the responsible party.

 

[justalayman]

SPROUTLADY123;3310372]Oh, forgot to add one thing. If the house was indeed transferred to the 4 people, shouldn't all 4 of them have copies of this deed? I don't think they do. I think the daughter has the legal papers.

one deed, that's it. They could all obtain certified copies of the deed but a grantor typically generates only one deed for the transfer of property.

 

[SPROUTLADY123]

one deed, that's it. They could all obtain certified copies of the deed but a grantor typically generates only one deed for the transfer of property.

I live in Brooklyn NY. I just went to google and typed in Block and Lot for Brooklyn, and the Department of Finance site came up and BBL and you put in the Lot number and the Block number. So I did, and it just shows her name. No one else.

This doesn't mean she's the owner? It says Owner and it gives her name.

See why I'm confused.

And there is only one copy of the deed? But four people can own a house?

Here's a good one for you. Being that we already know that the guy in the basement REFUSES to accept this 1/4 thing and his wife has already stated "We have a lawyer, we know our rights", well, can he contest this? I know you indicated that all 4 people are 1/4 owners of this house because it was transferred to them via this Bargain and Sale thing right? So when the old lady dies, can the son (and I'm sure they are looking this up as I type this because they are ALWAYS saying "Don't worry, you're not getting away with this, we have rights, I want HALF blah blah. Well, can they go to a lawyer and have the mother's Bargain and Sale thing invalidated, let's say on the reason she was 72 when she made it and she wasn't in her right mind, and they are contesting it and they feel that the son should get half, blah blah. You know what I mean. Like when a will is read and someone gets left out and they contest it. Can the son do anything about getting more than his 1/4?

See I have good questions here! lol

And I do appreciate you taking the time to respond, believe me.

P.S. Here's the website where I put in the lot and block and it gave her name:

http://nycprop.nyc.gov/nycproperty/nynav/jsp/selectbbl.jsp

 

[justalayman]

SPROUTLADY123;3310385]I live in Brooklyn NY. I just went to google and typed in Block and Lot for Brooklyn, and the Department of Finance site came up and BBL and you put in the Lot number and the Block number. So I did, and it just shows her name. No one else.

This doesn't mean she's the owner? It says Owner and it gives her name.

See why I'm confused.

Try looking up the property here to see if the new deed shows up:

http://publicrecords.onlinesearches.com/New-York-Land-Records-and-Deeds.htm

I am not familiar enough with NY to be able to tell you what the site you linked was. From what I can find, NY has an actual Register of Deeds. That is the office you want to check out for actual ownership issues. Anything else is based on the deeds.

And there is only one copy of the deed? But four people can own a house?

yes because that one deed transferred the entirety of the property to the grantees listed.

Here's a good one for you. Being that we already know that the guy in the basement REFUSES to accept this 1/4 thing and his wife has already stated "We have a lawyer, we know our rights", well, can he contest this?

the only way to contest it is to attempt to prove his mother incompetent at the time the deed was executed.

I know you indicated that all 4 people are 1/4 owners of this house because it was transferred to them via this Bargain and Sale thing right? So when the old lady dies, can the son (and I'm sure they are looking this up as I type this because they are ALWAYS saying "Don't worry, you're not getting away with this, we have rights, I want HALF blah blah. Well, can they go to a lawyer and have the mother's Bargain and Sale thing invalidated, let's say on the reason she was 72 when she made it and she wasn't in her right mind, and they are contesting it and they feel that the son should get half, blah blah. You know what I mean. Like when a will is read and someone gets left out and they contest it. Can the son do anything about getting more than his 1/4?

they can claim she was nuts but to win, they have to prove it.