Question about a Bargain and Sale Deed with Covenant against Grantor's acts

[SPROUTLADY123]

Hi. I clicked on the link you provided. I must be a complete doofus because I really did try to find property ownership (it had a link that said Land Records or something like that).

I did put her name in and sure enough she was found but to get a report they call it a premium record so I would have to pay. Oh well. I guess I have to learn how to use that website.

So I'll keep plugging and learning. I'm 67 and at least I know how to use a computer. Thanks much for all your answers.

Much appreciated.

 

[justalayman]

it may be a pay only site. I didn't have any info to plug in to check. Land records are "public records" so they can be viewed for free but some states have gone to pay to view on the internet. The free applies to walking into the office to review the records.

 

[SPROUTLADY123]

ooh, I think I found something. I went to google and typed in "Property Records in Brooklyn, NY" and a whole bunch of sites came up. I selected one that said NYC Registry and Public Records,(or something to that effect) and I was prompted to type in Lot and Block and I did.

Guess what came up? A whole bunch of rows that gave all kinds of info. Not that I understood much but It did indicate that in 2002 there was a CORRECT LIFE ESTATE, and it gave the old lady as Party of the first part and it indicated her son as Party of the Second part and then there was a check in the columns for 3rd party and others. Her Grandson was also listed underneath. Didn't see the daughter or the grandaughter's name but I really don't know what I'm doing yet.

So I think it's official. She deeded the house to 4 people, she gets to live there, pay all the bills, the son lives in the basement free, blah blah. Why on earth would she do this? Didn't anyone advise this woman?

I'm going to do some more digging. Maybe I'll learn what the h I'm doing?? lol

Just wanted to update you and thank you.

 

[SPROUTLADY123]

Found all the info!!!

Okay, I did it. I found all the information.

It said Correct Life Estate Office Use

Party of First part was the 82 year old

party of Second part was the 4 people.


So THEY are my landlords actually, but I pay rent to the old lady and she pays all the bills.

Holy Moly.

But hey!!!! I did it. I found all their names.

you taught me everything and I do thank you.

All done.

lol

 

[justalayman]

So THEY are my landlords actually, but I pay rent to the old lady and she pays all the bills.

actually the friend is your landlord. As the holder of the life estate, friend has control over the premises. She has a right to rent if she so desires. She is due the money.

When she dies the remaindermen (the 4 people listed) gain a possessory right in the property. Then they will become your landlords.

Holy Moly.

But hey!!!! I did it. I found all their names.

you taught me everything and I do thank you.

All done.

all done but what to do if/when your friend passes.

 

[SPROUTLADY123]

Well, I had breakfast with the daughter at Dunkin Donuts this morning. I passed on all your information. She said 'My brother can't move into the first floor because we have to get rent and he never paid rent'. I said 'I understand that but LEGALLY he can move into the first floor with his wife", but he is also responsible for contributing his 1/4 share into the house by providing his share for expenses, that is heating, taxes, electricity for the first floor and basement, things that your mom has been doing but now that she has passed, it falls on the 4 of you INCLUDING YOUR BROTHER"

The daughter then said "Then what do I do if he moves into the first floor, how do we get him out, what do we do?"

I then said "Well, I would consult an attorney now and see what your options will be AFTER your mom passes". I then also explained that all 4 of you are entitled to 1/4 of the rent. She said 'That is absolutely ridiculous, ,how on earth can you pay the 4 of us rent?"

I said 'Well, one of you will designate who hands this and I'll mail you a check because you won't be living downstairs from me anymore, you will have moved out the day after your mom's funeral right?"

She said "of course, because I can't live in the same house as my brother, he scares me"

I said "You can do a partition (wasn't sure how to explain this), by which the 3 of you get together and if your brother won't sell, it goes to court who will force a sale and divide the proceeds among the 4 of you BUT THIS TAKES A LONG TIME.

She looked at me and said 'OMG, I'm screwed aren't I". I said 'Your mother told your brother what she did and he knows he's getting 1/4?"" She said 'Yes she told him and he went absolutely nuts and said "I'M NOT HAVING ANY OF THIS, I'M ENTITLED TO HALF THIS HOUSE"

I then told the daughter exactly what you said that he has to accept it. I also told her his only option in fighting this is to try and have the old lady declared incompetent when she had this transfer deed drawn up but that's impossible to do because she has passed on, so your brother is stuck with the 1/4 but he can legally occupy the first floor.

See they want to keep the house, rent out the first floor, keep the guy in the basement (even if he doesn't pay any share). They will actually do this because if they rent out the first floor (together with my rent), they can pay the expenses of the house.

She just wants to know exactly what she should do if the guy moves into the first floor, announces "I'm not paying my share of anything, I don't have any money, my father said I should live here, it's my right to live here (with his wife), and that's it'

But the way, the wife (even though she works) gets medicaid and food stamps.

Let's say the old gal passes, the son moves up to the first floor, (he already pays the cable for the first floor and basement), but he now has the electricity and utilities to pay for right. What if he shouts "I don't have any money for utilities, you others have to pay for it but I'm going to live on the first floor"

What options do the other 3 have in order to get this guy to pay his share. The wife works so they MUST have SOME money. But they have had 3 cars repossessed and they have had the cable shut off many times because they don't pay their bills. I told the daughter. The wife of this guy has been working for 20 years and pays no rent. WHERE IS THEIR MONEY? Why are the cars repossessed, why has the cable been turned off and then she has all excuses, "IT'S A MISTAKE, WE PAID THE BILL", etc.

Nonsense. I've been there when their cars have been towed out of the driveway and the son goes after the towing company yelling in the streets "Bring back my car" Of course they never get it back and months go by and they get another car. Been doing this for years.

I think he's a parasite who lives off his wife (who pays the cable, food, gas, etc.) The guy has no money coming in.

So if you can at least give my friend a bit if info of what the remainder 3 can do (just in case this parasite and his wife move into the first floor but contribute NOTHING). Do they call the lawyer, do they call the police (I don't think so). What do they do?

I can't imagine the confliction this is going to become. I just told her "When your mom passes, and if your brother and his wife move up into the apartment after you vacate it, and the **** hits the fan, I'm going to just stay away from him, and mail you the check for the rent and you can do what you want with it." because until I get a registered letter indicating WHO I am to pay the rent to, I will just mail you a check. She said "that's fine" Even though she's not supposed to get all the money, I am not just going to be mailing 4 checks out. If I'm told divide the check into 4 payments, then of course I'll do that. But legally aren't I supposed to be informed of this?

What the hell would I do without all your help, I have no idea.

Thanks my dear

And my name is Melody by the way.
Merry Christmas


OH, ONE MORE IMPORTANT QUESTION. Right now, who has the right to sell the house? The 82 year old or the 4 owners. The daughter just asked me this and I said "Well, the 82 year old transferred the deed, she is no longer on the house so she has no say if it's sold or not sold, all the 4 people have to agree to sell the house at any time".
Did I get this right?

 

[justalayman]

I'm enjoying christmas with my family today so I will be back to pick this up shortly thereafter.

 

[SPROUTLADY123]

Glad you are enjoying Christmas with family. Wish I could say the same. Twelve years ago my 20 year old son left home telling us he was going off to college in Arizona. We checked it out. Never happened. He was a gamer (you know, the Worlds of Warcraft, Second Life stuff). We never knew because all those years ago parents didn't know these things. He is lost to us.

But on another note, I just got a call from the daughter downstairs. She said she was listening by the basement door and she heard her brother and the wife talking. The wife was saying things like : "Oh, they definitely have to be raised"

The only people that could refer to is ME AND MY HUSBAND. I immediately told my friend, the daughter "Listen, I don't trust them. She is influencing the husband who will be influencing the 82 year old". It's hard to imagine but the 82 year old feels sorry for the unemployed son who lives in the basement. She's a mom. I get it. But I don't believe in enabling. I keep my opinions to myself. I also told the daughter "Listen, we live in 3 little rooms and we pay $1100 a month, we don't have any more money to give you for the rent and you know this" The mom knows this too. The daughter said to me over the phone "Of course we are not going to raise you, are they serious, and besides, my brother's wife has no say in anything, who the hell does she think she is, she is delusional (everyone can't stand her, doesn't give her the time of day and all she does in go to work, come home and go on the computer), I think she's researching all their rights.

It's obvious that the people in the basement want to raise my rent, they think they have the right to raise my rent and I told the daughter. "These people can't do anything because your mother is the one who collects my rent, it says so on the Bargain and Sale Deed"

I know my legal rights. I know they can't evict me right away because I've lived here over 31 days. My husband was a process server for 30 years so I know landlord/tenant eviction stuff. I did not know anything about Bargain Sale Deed stuff that's why I came here.

I feel like (when I see the people in the basement again), well I feel like opening my mouth and telling the off but I won't. I don't want to give any stress to the 82 year old. She's my friend and I go down every night and keep her company until her daughter comes home from work. The people in the basement NEVER do that, check on her, anything like that. The daughter in law never does any family visiting or obligations or anything. Yet she is heard saying "Oh, they definitely have to be raised".

Sorry to vent, but it's Christmas and you're the only one who knows what I'm up against.

You are definitely having a better Christmas than I am. But hey, it's been 12 years. Nothing I can do.

So after your Christmas cheer, and when you get a minute, kindly come back here, read what I wrote and tell me that the people in the basement can't raise my rent. They CAN try and influence the 82 year old but the daughter and the old lady have my back (so to speak). They know my situation, we've been friends for 15 or so years and they did give us a roof over our heads. We are quiet people, never make noise, use headphones to watch tv or use computers. They never know we are eve home. They once called us and asked "Are you alive up there"? We all laughed.

Thanks for listening.

Later.....

 

[OK-LL]

Any buyer would be purchasing the property "subject to" the 82-year old's right to occupy it for the remainder of her life. The 4 individuals can only sell their interest as remaindermen.

 

[SPROUTLADY123]

Remaindermen?

Now why on earth would someone buy a property in which an 82 year old would occupy the first floor (paying no rent), and there are two old people on the top floor who DO pay rent, and there's a guy in the basement with his wife who pays no rent.

How would that be a good investment. I understand she's a life tenant, the guy in the basement is a life tenant and I'm upstairs as the only paying tenant in this house.

I had never heard of the word remainderman. Good God, the stuff I'm learning, you have no idea.

But I get heat and right now it's below zero with the wind chill so I don't care what happens right now. I have a roof over my head and I have heat.

Happy New Year

I'm just happy I didn't get raised. They know we use my half of the social security to pay the rent.

I find this whole bargain sale deed quite interesting. Thanks much for all the info. Not that I completely understand it all but i'm getting there. lol

 

[anteater]

I understand she's a life tenant, the guy in the basement is a life tenant and I'm upstairs as the only paying tenant in this house.

I confess that I am not going to read back through all the posts. But I believe, from what you have said, that the "guy in the basement" is a remainderman - and just a plain old tenant at this point.

Now why on earth would someone buy a property in which an 82 year old would occupy the first floor (paying no rent), and there are two old people on the top floor who DO pay rent, and there's a guy in the basement with his wife who pays no rent.

How would that be a good investment.

At the proper price, it might be a good investment. But any potential buyer now would be discounting any offer to take into account the 82 year old's life estate.

 

[SPROUTLADY123]

The guy in the basement (who is the son of the 82 year old) is 1/4 owner (because of the Bargain and Sale thing). All four people who are on the deed are remaindermen. The 82 can live their until she passes. This we all know. No one is putting her in a home. My 82 year old friend's daughter asked me "who owns this house"? when she showed me the Bargain and Sale. After reading all that you wrote I told her "Well you mom is a life tenant, your freeloader brother in the basement is a life tenant (as well as 1/4 owner) and that's about all I know.

Why is this so complicated? And today the boiler broke and we are waiting for the boiler man to come and fix the boiler so the heat can work again.

Now here's a good question. My 82 year old friend (when she did the Bargain and Sale deed transfer) agreed to pay all bills and collect rent and pay taxes, etc, and she is a life tenant BUT SHE PAYS FOR EVERYTHING?? Why on earth would she make this arrangement. I really don't think she knew what she was doing. I know that when she passes, the son from the basement can move right into that first floor apartment. But he has to come up with 1/4 of the expenses for the house right? He's not going to do that because he has no money (or so he claims).

So right now, god forbid they need a new boiler. Who is responsible? I think the 82 year old because she pays all the taxes and pays all the bills. The 4 people who each have 1/4 share in this house, well they don't have to cough up ANYTHING for the new boiler or repairs or anything like that?

Thanks

 

[OK-LL]

You are incorrect about the basement dweller being a life tenant. The deed granted life tenancy only to the 82 year old, not the basement dweller. And the deed is the only doucment that matters in this situation. So if the property is sold it will require all 4 owners plus the life estate holder to sign any deed of sale to give a buyer instant possession. If only the 4 remaindermen sign the deed of sale, then buyer takes the property "subject to" the 82 year old's life estate and must allow her to remain until the end of her life. If the property is sold, your rental agreement is only good for the duration of the current lease, or in the case of no written lease it will only be good until the new buyer gives you proper written notice to terminate your rental. So if you want to stay where you are, you should be happy the basement dweller wants to live there the rest of his life and doesn't want to sell -- it would take a lengthy court case to partition the property interests and sell the property, to force him out. And if he choses to live on the main floor after the 82 year old passes away, nothing can stop him doing so short of a partition suit, since each owner has equal right to the property -- that means no owner has a superior right to force the basement dweller to remain in the basement. It's a sticky situation, but you are better off staying on everyone's good side, incudling the basement dweller, if you want to remain in your upstair abode indefinitely. Good luck!

 

[OK-LL]

I noticed you seem to be questioning the fairness of the 82 year old being required to pay the taxes, collect the rent, pay the utilities, etc., during her tenancy. The idea seems to be that she remains in the same position as before she signed the deed; that is, she has control of the rents and utilities. Seems reasonable and fair that she should pay the expenses of living in the property while she does so, and if she rents the various floors to provide her with the income to pay the expenses, bully for her, it's her perogative to do so.

 

[SPROUTLADY123]

Ah, I completely understand (which is amazing) what you explained. Can't thank you enough. And you're right! I am on good terms with the guy in the basement, his wife, etc. because he DOES NOT WANT TO MOVE OR SELL THIS HOUSE AT ALL. He's been what's holding his mother up from selling. She wanted to sell a long long time ago but he threatened to never speak to her again, blah blah. He never contributed one nickel for rent, for anything. Nothing for utilities either. He's 60 and his wife works and wonder of all wonders, they pay the cable bill for both their floors.

She only collects one rent (from me).

No one likes the guy in the basement, they call him a parasite, a leech, you name it, he's been called it. He's an ex drug addict and god forbid anyone puts him down, the 82 year old will exclaim "shut up he's my son". I've NEVER said one bad thing against him, I am not stupid.

Everybody thinks he's stupid.
Really? I think he's BRILLIANT. Who do you know has lived in a fully furnished basement, has his wife go to work, she buys him a car (been repossesed a lot) but the wife pays for everything.

And people think he's STUPID????? LOL

Thanks very much for all your help. You taught me it all.

Bye for now.