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pele

Member
SRMacMahon


Maybe this will help you put things in perspective.

Re Mickey Mantle:

A famously hard drinker, Mantle went to the Betty Ford Clinic for alcohol treatment in 1994 and received a liver transplant in 1995, shortly before his death.

Here is a man who was an alcoholic, got treatment in 1994, had a liver transplant in 1995 (which should never had been allowed) and died shortly thereafter. He had all the things your husband didn't, and he still died.

Pele
 


ellencee

Senior Member
Jack
This poster's question has to do with liver disease and my response has to do with liver disease, not with curing alcoholism.

You have no medical education, no healthcare eduation, and no experience in the health care field. I am a qualified medical expert witness and medical expert consultant for plaintiff and defense. When you gain that status, perhaps you will be able to provide accurate healthcare/medical care information.

EC
 
S

SRMcMahon

Guest
Re: the Yankees, can't remember for sure, but I think Mantle got a second transplant.

When you say "should have never been allowed", what's the context? Medical treatment decisions are not based on moral biases, but on medical standards. Standards change. The standards re: past alcohol use were changing when Mantle got his liver.

Because of competition for organs, expected outcomes determine candidacy, but each center has its own specific protocols and criteria. History of alcohol use is no longer a basis to exclude a person from candidacy, although ANY active use is an absolute barrier, and a demonstrated period of sobriety has to precede consideration. Within that, variations include how sobriety is demonstrated and what kind of CD evaluation, relapse prevention, and so on are required.

Within that, coordination among providers is the biggest hurdle. In my husband's case, I have NO ARGUMENT with the protocols, but poor coordination and communication interfered with the protocols working as they were supposed to. As far as the evaluation process itself was concerned, my problem was never the protocol requirements about alcohol, rather horrific problems getting a communication protocol. Setting up case management seemed to be the obvious first step, but what I found was that when you have multiple providers and a serious chronic illness this is the Holy Grail and as hard to get.

I have a 23-yo nephew who has lupus. He was diagnosed 5 months ago and severity is progressing rapidly (kidney, liver, brain). Doesn't drink, doesn't do drugs, doesn't smoke. 6 months ago he was working full-time. He went to the dr. with what appeared to be mosquito bites that were not going away, and next thing we know it's monthly chemo. We see EXACTLY the same coordination problems in the medical system. How do you tell the difference between a chronic problem with our medical structure and a specific act of negligence? I don't know. He has been trying to find a PCP who can work with his specialist (who is 250 miles away) since August. He tried to see if the chemo could be done locally--he's not able to drive long distances so we've been taking turns. The doctor he saw told him "I'm not a gas station attendant."

There are genuine differences in medical opinion and approach, but people get caught in the middle. "Why aren't you taking this drug we told you to take on your last visit?" "The GI took me off of it, you should have his report." Next doctor: "I'm told there are concerns about your compliance with medication." "We discussed that with Dr. Y, isn't that in your report?" "Well, that would be true if you had kidney involvement." "Remember in July you said there was kidney involvement?"

They're looking at transplant in HCV/HIV-positive patients, so HIV will not necessarily eliminate you. Organs are precious, standards intend to send organs where they do the most good medically.

EC, don't try to claim you were just talking about liver disease. On this thread, you started off rational but the minute you connected this thread with the custody and support thread things changed pretty dramatically.
 
J

JackSchroder

Guest
EC:
Get off your stupid high horse.
You are limited by your unfounded loyalty to the medical profession, and you identify with the medical profession so much your comments are useless on this site. Don't start evaluating me in your remarks. You know nothing about me and your remarks are unfounded and far off. When you have the experience I have, you will learn that "research" without seeing the medical records is useless and a waste of time. I read your "research" and believe me it gives me a good laugh. Do you know that most complaints in a malpractice file are amended by the time the case goes to trial? Sometimes a lawyer is into the case a year or more before the truth begins to emerge. I was in this business before you grew into your rompers. Get a little experience before you start shouting off. You expose your ignorance.
 
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ellencee

Senior Member
SRMcMahon


Please see a medmal attorney and child advocacy attorney.
EC
 
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J

JackSchroder

Guest
I am sorry to see things get so far out of hand here. This is a site intended to help people who send questions. It is not a chat room, and it should not convey to the person asking for help any criticism or personality bashing.
EC: go take your medicine, you are out of control.
 

ellencee

Senior Member
Jack
I have posted this before and I will post it again--I do not dislike you or disrepect you. I respect that you worked in your chosen field for 25 years and that you 'wrote' and published a book for laypersons to provide them with 'see spot run' level advice.

However, you apparently have no respect for any medical organization or medical provider or medical authority.

All I ask is that you refrain from giving false medical advice and that you 'stick' to your area of expertise.

If I am out of control and need to be banned, I am sure the appropriate authorities will post such and do such.

Thank you and have a good day,
EC
 

pele

Member
SRMacMahon


You misunderstood, Mantle should not have gotten the liver because he was too far gone, not because he was an alcoholic. Look at how well Larry Hagman is doing.


From Pele, hiding out in the DMZ
 
S

SRMcMahon

Guest
EC--are you verifying that you have been posting "as a medical professional" and to what posts on this or the other thread (you know which one) would that refer? Or would you prefer to say that some of your posts reflect personal points of view and are not intended to represent the opinions of a medical professional? Just want to get that clear. . . .

ok, I'm off to hide in the marsh for a few days myself.

Almost. . .
Pele, now I get it the about Mickey Mantle.

Question remains from the original post: what are the standards for using ultrasonography when doing paracentesis,

(and/or in addition) to treat varices in a patient with liver failure, refractory ascites, who is already being treated for significant infection, presents and is treated as an outpatient but has been hospitalized 20 out of the past 24 days, and has never been seen before in the particular facility (a clinic)? Are there any right-side/left-side concerns? What affect does positioning (reclining vs sitting in upright straight-backed chair) have? Is being a "world-class" facility with tons of experience a factor (i.e. less experience requires increased caution)?


Back later.
 

lkc15507

Member
SRMcMahon said:
EC--are you verifying that you have been posting "as a medical professional" and to what posts on this or the other thread (you know which one) would that refer? Or would you prefer to say that some of your posts reflect personal points of view and are not intended to represent the opinions of a medical professional? Just want to get that clear. . . .

ok, I'm off to hide in the marsh for a few days myself.

Almost. . .
Pele, now I get it the about Mickey Mantle.

Question remains from the original post: what are the standards for using ultrasonography when doing paracentesis,

(and/or in addition) to treat varices in a patient with liver failure, refractory ascites, who is already being treated for significant infection, presents and is treated as an outpatient but has been hospitalized 20 out of the past 24 days, and has never been seen before in the particular facility (a clinic)? Are there any right-side/left-side concerns? What affect does positioning (reclining vs sitting in upright straight-backed chair) have? Is being a "world-class" facility with tons of experience a factor (i.e. less experience requires increased caution)?


Back later.
SRMcMahon:

I'm not sure that I read these particular sets of questions / concerns in your original post. What I was able to ascertain from your original post were these questions, (paraphrased):

1.) Should your husband have been diagnosed with HCV sooner?
2.) Would an earlier diagnosis of HCV been determinate to his outcome?
3.) If so, would you have a malpractice case?

1.) I think it quite likely he should have been diagnosed with HCV sooner.
2.) NO. For many reasons. There is no doubt that alcohol (notice I do not say 'alcoholism') played a very definite role in his chronic liver failure. Whether or not HCV positive. Whether or not alcoholism is a diagnosis or a lablel, alcohol was very detrimental to his condition. You, yourself describe the period of drinking as being lengthy. You state that current research does not support alcohol alone as being detrimental to liver function, yet you do not cite your specific research. I would beg to differ. In an HCV positive patient, liver transplant would not be curative. The disease would progress and destroy the new liver, were he a candidate in the first place. Was he a transplant candidate? Quite likely not. Transplantation in HCV positive patients is now primarily with a HCV positive donors. You also mention other risk factors for having developed HCV. I do not care how he acquired HCV, nor does the medical community at large. The question is, however, had he eliminated those negative factors in order to be eligible for a liver transplant? Given the information in your own post, my guess is no. Of course earlier diagnosis presents a better chance of cure / improvement, improved outcomes, but can one say that had he been diagnosed HCV positive earlier, his outcome would have been different? I don't think so. Certainly with no degree of certainty. Was the problem HCV or alcohol or a combination of these as well as other conditions such as hemochromocytoma?
3.) Leads me to this. No, I wouldn't consider a malpractice suit viable for those reasons alone.

But, as has been said, no one can say definitively without a thorough reading of all records. By all means, consult an attorney if you feel there are other factors not considered. Truthfully, your last post, quoted above, seems to be looking to entrap a "wrong" answer. I perceive you have an answer in mind and nothing else will do. I have answers to those questions, given my knowledge and experience, but will not answer them for that reason.

Forgive me if I am skeptical, but the changing of your tone from first post to last gives me reason to doubt your motives. I understand it is easy to become combative when replying to these threads, but, your tone seems more to proving a point than seeking advice.

I wish the best for you,
lkc15507
 

ellencee

Senior Member
EC--are you verifying that you have been posting "as a medical professional" and to what posts on this or the other thread (you know which one) would that refer?
--yep; each and every one.

Or would you prefer to say that some of your posts reflect personal points of view and are not intended to represent the opinions of a medical professional?
--nope.

Question remains from the original post: what are the standards for using ultrasonography when doing paracentesis,
--dependent upon differing factors.

(and/or in addition) to treat varices in a patient with liver failure, refractory ascites, who is already being treated for significant infection, presents and is treated as an outpatient but has been hospitalized 20 out of the past 24 days, and has never been seen before in the particular facility (a clinic)? Are there any right-side/left-side concerns?
--nope.

What affect does positioning (reclining vs sitting in upright straight-backed chair) have?
--reclining lays the patient back; sitting upright does not.

Is being a "world-class" facility with tons of experience a factor (i.e. less experience requires increased caution)?
--nope.

EC
 
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