Using the kids as leverage

[CJane]

What is the name of your state? MO

Ok.

I was ordered to pay $1500 to my ex as part of his attorney's fees for moving w/out proper notice. The order came through in May, but was dated April.

He was ordered to pay me $400/month child support.

On Friday, he asked me if I would sign a 'letter of credit' - essentially agreeing to forego child support until that $1500 is paid. I told him I'd think about it.

He called this morning and told me that I had two choices... I could sign the letter of credit and go whithout child support for the next 3.75 months, or he would 'revoke' my vacatoin time with the kids which is supposed to start on Wednesday morning. He informed me that he would be here with the Sheriff @ 8 am on Wednesday unless I provided him this letter by Tuesday night. I said "So, now you're blackmailing me?" and he said "No. Using the only thing you care about as leverage. There's a difference."

So... questions.

I don't even think that CSE would allow such a thing. I wouldn't be forgiving arrears, I'd be basically telling them that it's ok with me if he doesn't pay for a few months. IF I agreed to this, do you think they'd even let me do that?

If I don't agree, and refuse to let him have the kids on Wednesday... how do I prove to the sheriff that it's supposed to be my vacation time, and not his custodial period?

Is there anything I can do, legally speaking, to keep him from attempting to use the kids/my visitation as leverage in the future? I realize that the easy answer is 'pay him', and he's on the list of people I need to pay... but he's nowhere near the top.

I've already decided that I'm not going to sign the letter... that it's not worth 4 months without child support just to have what amounts to 7 extra days with the kids. So, if he pushes this, I'll go without the vacation time. But I want to know what the legalities are with this... if there's anything I can do to nip this new control thing in the bud.

 

[Mbarr77]

What is the name of your state? MO

Ok.

I was ordered to pay $1500 to my ex as part of his attorney's fees for moving w/out proper notice. The order came through in May, but was dated April.

He was ordered to pay me $400/month child support.

On Friday, he asked me if I would sign a 'letter of credit' - essentially agreeing to forego child support until that $1500 is paid. I told him I'd think about it.

He called this morning and told me that I had two choices... I could sign the letter of credit and go whithout child support for the next 3.75 months, or he would 'revoke' my vacatoin time with the kids which is supposed to start on Wednesday morning. He informed me that he would be here with the Sheriff @ 8 am on Wednesday unless I provided him this letter by Tuesday night. I said "So, now you're blackmailing me?" and he said "No. Using the only thing you care about as leverage. There's a difference."

So... questions.


I don't even think that CSE would allow such a thing. I wouldn't be forgiving arrears, I'd be basically telling them that it's ok with me if he doesn't pay for a few months. IF I agreed to this, do you think they'd even let me do that?

If I don't agree, and refuse to let him have the kids on Wednesday... how do I prove to the sheriff that it's supposed to be my vacation time, and not his custodial period?

Is there anything I can do, legally speaking, to keep him from attempting to use the kids/my visitation as leverage in the future? I realize that the easy answer is 'pay him', and he's on the list of people I need to pay... but he's nowhere near the top.

I've already decided that I'm not going to sign the letter... that it's not worth 4 months without child support just to have what amounts to 7 extra days with the kids. So, if he pushes this, I'll go without the vacation time. But I want to know what the legalities are with this... if there's anything I can do to nip this new control thing in the bud.

No, the courts would not allow you to do that with regards to the child support. Reason being is because it is two seperate issues. CS has nothing to do with the monies you were ordered to pay him. Basically if you were to agree to this then the child support would still be billed to his cs account with the state, and he would begin to show arrearages.

 

[CJane]

No, the courts would not allow you to do that with regards to the child support. Reason being is because it is two seperate issues. CS has nothing to do with the monies you were ordered to pay him. Basically if you were to agree to this then the child support would still be billed to his cs account with the state, and he would begin to show arrearages.

Which is exactly what I told him when I called him back (after hanging up on him, having some coffee and smoking about 5 cigarettes ).

I guess what I really need to know is... should I just give up the two weeks and let the kids go with him on Wednesday rather than even think about causing a fuss about it? After-all, I lose a few days with the kids, but I don't lose 4 months CS.

Is this behavior on his part something worth documenting for future use, or is it just one more a$$h*le thing that should really only serve as a reminder of why I'm not married to him anymore? He's talking about moving in the very near future, so I can see us back in court before the year is out (which is almost enough to make me cry just thinking about it).

 

[Mbarr77]

Which is exactly what I told him when I called him back (after hanging up on him, having some coffee and smoking about 5 cigarettes ).

I guess what I really need to know is... should I just give up the two weeks and let the kids go with him on Wednesday rather than even think about causing a fuss about it? After-all, I lose a few days with the kids, but I don't lose 4 months CS.

Is this behavior on his part something worth documenting for future use, or is it just one more a$$h*le thing that should really only serve as a reminder of why I'm not married to him anymore? He's talking about moving in the very near future, so I can see us back in court before the year is out (which is almost enough to make me cry just thinking about it).

I know from your previous posts that you just got done going through court with him. bu, is the vacation that is coming up part of the court order?!? How long did the courts give you to pay back the 1700.00?

It is most definately worth documenting. Because, imo, it shows that he is not interested in fostering a good relationship between you and the children. He is only interested in "using them as leverage" against you.

 

[weenor]

Jane all of these are separate things. Is your vacation time part of the most recent order or is it a side agreement? If part of a court order he cannot withhold the custody time from you for nonpayment of the fees.

As far as the fees go, I suspect that there is no due date in the order. If that is the case you would not be in contempt if the fees are paid within a reasonable time. What is reasonable, who knows. If you don't mind paying the collection fees and accrued interest, make him jump through the hoops to collect.

 

[CJane]

I know from your previous posts that you just got done going through court with him. bu, is the vacation that is coming up part of the court order?!?

Yes. We each get two uninterrupted weeks each summer with the kids. Mine was to begin on Wednesday and go until the 5th. His is from the 5th to the 19th. BUT the exact times aren't in the order, and we're not required to have written agreement or anything. Just notify each other in writing of our desired weeks.

How long did the courts give you to pay back the 1700.00?

There is no time frame in the order. I actually asked my attorney about this (anticipating him trying to not pay CS til he was 'paid back'). She said "Unless he gets a garnishment order eventually, I'd just make sure there's an extra $1500 in your estate when you die."

It is most definately worth documenting. Because, imo, it shows that he is not interested in fostering a good relationship between you and the children. He is only interested in "using them as leverage" against you.

That's what I was wondering about. All of that was already pretty clear to the GAL and the judge, so I guess I'll document to show a continuing pattern of behavior.

 

[Mbarr77]

Yes. We each get two uninterrupted weeks each summer with the kids. Mine was to begin on Wednesday and go until the 5th. His is from the 5th to the 19th. BUT the exact times aren't in the order, and we're not required to have written agreement or anything. Just notify each other in writing of our desired weeks.



There is no time frame in the order. I actually asked my attorney about this (anticipating him trying to not pay CS til he was 'paid back'). She said "Unless he gets a garnishment order eventually, I'd just make sure there's an extra $1500 in your estate when you die."



That's what I was wondering about. All of that was already pretty clear to the GAL and the judge, so I guess I'll document to show a continuing pattern of behavior.

Then I would do exactly as what weenor suggested, and make him jump through hoops to collect his money! If you give in to him then this cycle will only keep repeating itself, and he will get exactly what he wants. But, more importantly your children, who probably are already expecting their time with you will be disappointed, and you as well. So, I would send him a certified letter, or course return receipt and explain to him that you intend to exercise your visitation as was previously discussed and agreed upon. I would also include in their what his agreed two weeks were. That the CS issue, and the monies owed to him are two seperate issues and that you cannot agree to waive four months of payments as that money is intended to, and will be used to help provide for the childrens needs. That way if he does not allow you this upcoming visitation you have the court order, and the letter to show the police.

 

[CJane]

Jane all of these are separate things. Is your vacation time part of the most recent order or is it a side agreement? If part of a court order he cannot withhold the custody time from you for nonpayment of the fees.

I know they're separate things. And I know that he 'cannot' withhold the custody... not legally. But we all know that he really can. Nothing is going to stop him from showing up here on Wednesday morning and calling the Sheriff and making life hell for just a little bit. I wasn't even planning on being in town on Wednesday - we were going to go to the lake on Monday morning and return Thursday... but I can see him reporting the kids missing if we're not here, and then I'm defending myself against bogus contempt charges.

As far as the fees go, I suspect that there is no due date in the order. If that is the case you would not be in contempt if the fees are paid within a reasonable time. What is reasonable, who knows. If you don't mind paying the collection fees and accrued interest, make him jump through the hoops to collect.

That's my thought.

 

[Mbarr77]

on a side note: I am sorry to hear that you are still going through this with your ex, after you just got out of court!! I hope for you and your childrens sake he eventually gets a life!

 

[CJane]

on a side note: I am sorry to hear that you are still going through this with your ex, after you just got out of court!! I hope for you and your childrens sake he eventually gets a life!

Yeah, that's not gonna happen. He's already got a new wife, a new kid, a new job, etc. I thought about suggesting he tell his wife to get a job if he's THAT strapped for cash, or perhaps NOT fly her and the kids to Minnesota for his 2 week vacation (which he's not taking with them), or that he could have NOT just flown her to WI to see her friend.

But, ya know, I'm sometimes nicer than all that.

 

[Mbarr77]

Yeah, that's not gonna happen. He's already got a new wife, a new kid, a new job, etc. I thought about suggesting he tell his wife to get a job if he's THAT strapped for cash, or perhaps NOT fly her and the kids to Minnesota for his 2 week vacation (which he's not taking with them), or that he could have NOT just flown her to WI to see her friend.

But, ya know, I'm sometimes nicer than all that.

Well, maybe if you send the letter certified receipt letting him know you are not falling for his demands then he will allow the kids to spend their two weeks with you!! I hope it works out. I hate to see kids disappointed just because the one parent cannot get their head far enough out of their butt to see what is best for the kids!!

 

[weenor]

I wasn't even planning on being in town on Wednesday - we were going to go to the lake on Monday morning and return Thursday... Stick with your plans.

but I can see him reporting the kids missing if we're not here, and then I'm defending myself against bogus contempt charges.

Screw him. Just carry a copy of the order with you if the cops actually chase you to the lake. You know to document all of this with the dates and when he files the charge, let him explain to the judge why he doesn't have to follow the court order.

 

[LdiJ]

Which is exactly what I told him when I called him back (after hanging up on him, having some coffee and smoking about 5 cigarettes ).

I guess what I really need to know is... should I just give up the two weeks and let the kids go with him on Wednesday rather than even think about causing a fuss about it? After-all, I lose a few days with the kids, but I don't lose 4 months CS.

Is this behavior on his part something worth documenting for future use, or is it just one more a$$h*le thing that should really only serve as a reminder of why I'm not married to him anymore? He's talking about moving in the very near future, so I can see us back in court before the year is out (which is almost enough to make me cry just thinking about it).

Absolutely, positively DO NOT give up your vacation time. The Sheriff is NOT going to arrest you for not turning the kids over to him, and the judge would rip him a new one if he attempted to take that to court.

What's more, as you have already been told, he can't do that anyway. NEVER give in to blackmail...EVER.

 

[CJane]

Stick with your plans.

I want to. But... he scares me. And I KNOW it's stupid, but there ya go.

Screw him.

I think I'll pass, thanks.

Just carry a copy of the order with you if the cops actually chase you to the lake. You know to document all of this with the dates and when he files the charge, let him explain to the judge why he doesn't have to follow the court order.

I would so love that.

Absolutely, positively DO NOT give up your vacation time. The Sheriff is NOT going to arrest you for not turning the kids over to him, and the judge would rip him a new one if he attempted to take that to court.

So, how do I PROVE that this is supposed to be my vacation, and not his regularly scheduled custodial period? I guess that's my biggest concern. He'll just say I never notified him, and I'll have no proof that I did.

What's more, as you have already been told, he can't do that anyway. NEVER give in to blackmail...EVER.

I'm not giving in on the financial thing... I wouldn't even if I could afford to, but I can't. It's just nice to know that even if I was tempted, CSE wouldn't let me. I guess I wasn't seeing giving up my vacatoin as giving in to the blackmail, but not rocking the boat. I'm so bad at rocking the boat when it comes to him.

I hate this crap.

 

[GrowUp!]

I want to. But... he scares me. And I KNOW it's stupid, but there ya go.

I am sorry you are going through this...and since my Furious Meter has exploded because of other events, I'll probably be more frank than I usually am! LOL

But, if you don't mind me asking: why does he scare you? What can he do to you (unless he's willing to jeopardize everythign for stupid actions).

So, how do I PROVE that this is supposed to be my vacation, and not his regularly scheduled custodial period? I guess that's my biggest concern. He'll just say I never notified him, and I'll have no proof that I did.

Didn't you say you notified him in writing? You stated in a previous response that all you had to do was notify each other in writing. If you gave him notice -- even via US Mail -- that's good enough. He can certainly play the "I didn't get it card", but if you send something via US first class mail, it's presumed the other party received it. And if you've been sending stuff to him via that method before, then he'd be stupid to try to claim "he didn't receive it." Also, since he THREATENED in a phone conversation to you about withholding the children from you, THAT IS usuable in court.

Someone had a good suggestion -- follow up in writing. I would add to that to reiterate what he said -- word for word (if you can), including time and date of phone call -- in that letter. Send it certified and also send it first class.

I'm not giving in on the financial thing... I wouldn't even if I could afford to, but I can't. It's just nice to know that even if I was tempted, CSE wouldn't let me. I guess I wasn't seeing giving up my vacatoin as giving in to the blackmail, but not rocking the boat. I'm so bad at rocking the boat when it comes to him.

The thing is is that child support is completely separate from everything else...including you having to pay his fees, etc. The courts are not allowed to penalize the Obligee (you!) via child support (like your ex is trying to do). Did that make sense? As someone suggested, since there is no deadline to pay, you can pay whenever you want. Hell, send him a dollar a day. Or a dollar a week. NOthing he can do about it except bitch like a little girl -- and maybe stomp his feet. LOL