Using the kids as leverage

[CJane]

But, if you don't mind me asking: why does he scare you? What can he do to you (unless he's willing to jeopardize everythign for stupid actions).

He can't really DO anything. But we just got our new order after 2 1/2 years of arguing and me having to carry a copy of my order with me wherever I went, and him driving by my house and illegally recording phone calls and attempting to install keystroke recorders on my computer and questoining the kids about every visit, and threats and .... I'm TIRED. And no matter how broke he claims to be, I know he's got virtually unlimited access to funding to haul me back into court again. The charges being bogus wouldn't bother him in the least. Certainly wouldn't be the first time.

The fear isn't for myself. It's based in wanting to keep my kids out of the drama, and he's making it more and more difficult to do so.

Didn't you say you notified him in writing? You stated in a previous response that all you had to do was notify each other in writing.

He was notified. He was NOT notified by the date stated in the order, but there is no language indicating that vacation is forfeited for notifying late. And it doesn't state anything about consent either, simply notification of the desired dates. We even discussed it Wednesday night when he picked up the kids (after I kept them for him all day since his wife is out of town). AND I have his letter notifying me of the dates that he wanted, in which he states that he wants me to take my 2 weeks and will do anything in his power to accomodate that even though I was late giving notice. And Friday, he gave me copies of appointment cards so that I can take the kids to the dentist on what would have been his day if I wasn't taking vacation.

Someone had a good suggestion -- follow up in writing. I would add to that to reiterate what he said -- word for word (if you can), including time and date of phone call -- in that letter. Send it certified and also send it first class.

I will. Thanks.

The thing is is that child support is completely separate from everything else...including you having to pay his fees, etc. The courts are not allowed to penalize the Obligee (you!) via child support (like your ex is trying to do). Did that make sense? As someone suggested, since there is no deadline to pay, you can pay whenever you want. Hell, send him a dollar a day. Or a dollar a week. NOthing he can do about it except bitch like a little girl -- and maybe stomp his feet. LOL

What's funny is I WAS going to offer to reimburse him for 1/2 of the CS each month... he'd pay the full amount to CSE and when I got the check from them, I'd just write one to him. Seems I've retracted that offer without ever making it though.

Couple other questions:

He has decided that the children need to see a different pediatrician, because his wife doesn't like the one they currently go to (and have since the youngest was born). He's already made arrangements to have their medical records transferred. Since we now have joint legal, this obviously would be something I should have been consulted on/agreed to... is this contempt or petty crap?

He made dental appointments for the children on what would normally be his day (a Thursday). He stated "Since you'll have them for vacation, you'll have to take them so I'll let you know when the appointments are." Am I within my rights to reschedule the appointments if necessary? Is this something I should have been consulted about, or just something that 'notification' is required for?

Bear with me... this whole joint-custody thing is fairly new to me and I don't know what is worth documenting and what isn't.

 

[LdiJ]

Here is what I would send in the letter and send it so that he will absolutely get it Tuesday...by whatever means necessary. Priority certified mail may be needed.

Dear Mr Pig (change that to an appropriate address..LOL)

I am not willing to accept your demand that I write a letter foregoing child support for the next 3.75 months in order to fullfill the requirement that I pay for 1500.00 of your attorney fees. Child support and my debt to you are separate legal matters and my research indicates that you would not be credited against your cs account even if I were to sign such a letter. Therefore it is a pointless exercise.

As per our court order we are each entitled to two weeks of uninterrupted vacation time with the children. As per my previous notice to you and your previous notice to me our respective vacation times are as follows:

Mine: June 21 - July 5

Yours: July 5 - July 19

I cannot accept your threat to withhold my vacation time by bringing the sheriff to my door on June 21st, if I don't sign your demanded letter waiving child support for the next 3.75 months.

Therefore, I will be taking my vacation with the children as per my previous notification to you.

Sincerely,

____________________________________

Then, I would take myself down to the sheriff's office and explain the problem. Give them a copy of the letter and a copy of your court orders and advise them that you will be out of town on June 21st, and that your ex is just bullheaded enough to try to falsely claim that the children have been kidnapped...and that you don't want the taxpayer's resources wasted simply because he can't have what he wants.

Then I would go on your trip and completely forget about your ex.

CJane....he LOST in court. He not only lost but he and his wife made fools of themselves. The judge gave him that 1500.00 as a "sop" to his ego...nothing more....it was the only thing that the judge could give him.

You have to start standing up for yourself and the children. You have to realize that this last court battle shows that he is NOT in control and that you will not give in to blackmail.
Do it now or you will be dealing with this kind of crap until the kids are 18....and even beyond.....because don't think that he won't use the same tactics on them to get what he wants...if he isn't "nipped in the bud" now.

What do you want your girls to learn? To stand up for what is right, or to do whatever is necessary to "keep the peace" even if its totally wrong? Do you want them to marry men like their dad? Do you want them to let their dad control THEIR children's lives because they are too afraid to put their foot down?

He isn't doing this because he needs that 1500.00....we both know that he doesn't. He is doing this because his ego took a serious beating in court and he is trying to find ways to re-exert control. Don't let him do that.

There may be times when it will be a battle not worth fighting and when its better to just let him "have his way". Giving up your summer vacation time with the kids is NOT one of those times.

 

[CJane]

Thanks Ldi... that was the nicest pull your head out of your a$$ I've ever received. And YES, I know that you're right about his behavior. It's exactly what I went through during our entire marriage, it's what I watched my mom go through in her marriage to my father, it's what I'm sure his current wife is going through... and I want my kids to not have to deal with it. SO, I tend to give in so they don't deal with the fall out.

BUT. I will write the letter, I will make sure it's delivered to him by Tuesday, and then I'll see what happens. God willing, when I call his bluff, he won't push the envelope and make everything public...

 

[weenor]

Here is what I would send in the letter and send it so that he will absolutely get it Tuesday...by whatever means necessary. Priority certified mail may be needed.

Dear Mr Pig (change that to an appropriate address..LOL)

I am not willing to accept your demand that I write a letter foregoing child support for the next 3.75 months in order to fullfill the requirement that I pay for 1500.00 of your attorney fees. Child support and my debt to you are separate legal matters and my research indicates that you would not be credited against your cs account even if I were to sign such a letter. Therefore it is a pointless exercise.

As per our court order we are each entitled to two weeks of uninterrupted vacation time with the children. As per my previous notice to you and your previous notice to me our respective vacation times are as follows:

Mine: June 21 - July 5

Yours: July 5 - July 19

I cannot accept your threat to withhold my vacation time by bringing the sheriff to my door on June 21st, if I don't sign your demanded letter waiving child support for the next 3.75 months.

Therefore, I will be taking my vacation with the children as per my previous notification to you.

Sincerely,

____________________________________

Then, I would take myself down to the sheriff's office and explain the problem. Give them a copy of the letter and a copy of your court orders and advise them that you will be out of town on June 21st, and that your ex is just bullheaded enough to try to falsely claim that the children have been kidnapped...and that you don't want the taxpayer's resources wasted simply because he can't have what he wants.

Then I would go on your trip and completely forget about your ex.

CJane....he LOST in court. He not only lost but he and his wife made fools of themselves. The judge gave him that 1500.00 as a "sop" to his ego...nothing more....it was the only thing that the judge could give him.

You have to start standing up for yourself and the children. You have to realize that this last court battle shows that he is NOT in control and that you will not give in to blackmail.
Do it now or you will be dealing with this kind of crap until the kids are 18....and even beyond.....because don't think that he won't use the same tactics on them to get what he wants...if he isn't "nipped in the bud" now.

What do you want your girls to learn? To stand up for what is right, or to do whatever is necessary to "keep the peace" even if its totally wrong? Do you want them to marry men like their dad? Do you want them to let their dad control THEIR children's lives because they are too afraid to put their foot down?

He isn't doing this because he needs that 1500.00....we both know that he doesn't. He is doing this because his ego took a serious beating in court and he is trying to find ways to re-exert control. Don't let him do that.

There may be times when it will be a battle not worth fighting and when its better to just let him "have his way". Giving up your summer vacation time with the kids is NOT one of those times.

Excellent Ldij- I love it, especially the Dear Mr. Pig. Jane I would add what you already know, do not deal with this idiot on any major issues unless its in writing, despite what the court order says. However, with your current situation make sure you are keeping a diary. I have done for three years. It is not admissible evidence, but it reminds me and hubby about the bull when one of is getting soft. Also the GAL in our case was quite interested in reviewing what I had documented because contemporaneous documentation tends to be more accurate than testimony about what you remember 3 years from now. Your order is to vague for the cops to get involved because of the notification language. It's he said, she said and they definitely won't deal with it.

 

[LdiJ]

Thanks Ldi... that was the nicest pull your head out of your a$$ I've ever received. And YES, I know that you're right about his behavior. It's exactly what I went through during our entire marriage, it's what I watched my mom go through in her marriage to my father, it's what I'm sure his current wife is going through... and I want my kids to not have to deal with it. SO, I tend to give in so they don't deal with the fall out.

BUT. I will write the letter, I will make sure it's delivered to him by Tuesday, and then I'll see what happens. God willing, when I call his bluff, he won't push the envelope and make everything public...

Make the visit to the sheriff's office too...that's a critical part of the whole thing.

And remember that its time for someone to "break the cycle". You just admitted that your mom went through the same thing that you are dealing with. Unless you want your daughters to deal with the same crap and your granddaughters to do the same, end it now.

 

[CJane]

Make the visit to the sheriff's office too...that's a critical part of the whole thing.

And remember that its time for someone to "break the cycle". You just admitted that your mom went through the same thing that you are dealing with. Unless you want your daughters to deal with the same crap and your granddaughters to do the same, end it now.

Perhaps a stupid question, but should I go to the sheriff's office in my county AND his? Should I copy anyone on the letter, or just keep a copy for my file?

If he's not there to sign for the letter on Tuesday, he won't get it til he feels like picking it up @ the post office... is when he actually RECEIVES it going to make a difference, or is just the date it's mailed and the first delivery attempt made going to be proof enough that I notified him AGAIN?

 

[GrowUp!]

Perhaps a stupid question, but should I go to the sheriff's office in my county AND his?

HIS County.

Should I copy anyone on the letter, or just keep a copy for my file?

Who else would you cc? One thing I would put (at the bottom) is a "service" note (like a certificate of service on legal documents) that states the method of service, date and receipt number, if applicable.

If he's not there to sign for the letter on Tuesday, he won't get it til he feels like picking it up @ the post office... is when he actually RECEIVES it going to make a difference, or is just the date it's mailed and the first delivery attempt made going to be proof enough that I notified him AGAIN?

That is why you send one express delivery (or whatever the next day service by the USPS is) and also First Class Regular mail. And note BOTH at the bottom of the letter.

 

[ceara19]

HIS County.


Who else would you cc? One thing I would put (at the bottom) is a "service" note (like a certificate of service on legal documents) that states the method of service, date and receipt number, if applicable.


That is why you send one express delivery (or whatever the next day service by the USPS is) and also First Class Regular mail. And note BOTH at the bottom of the letter.

Actually, I would give the letter to the sheriff's office in BOTH counties. With her ex's past, if he is turned away in HIS county, he will probably try to pull the same crap in HER county.

Plus, it never HURTS to have a copy of any and all direct correspondences placed in the courts file.

 

[LdiJ]

Couple other questions:

He has decided that the children need to see a different pediatrician, because his wife doesn't like the one they currently go to (and have since the youngest was born). He's already made arrangements to have their medical records transferred. Since we now have joint legal, this obviously would be something I should have been consulted on/agreed to... is this contempt or petty crap?

He made dental appointments for the children on what would normally be his day (a Thursday). He stated "Since you'll have them for vacation, you'll have to take them so I'll let you know when the appointments are." Am I within my rights to reschedule the appointments if necessary? Is this something I should have been consulted about, or just something that 'notification' is required for?

Bear with me... this whole joint-custody thing is fairly new to me and I don't know what is worth documenting and what isn't.

I missed these questions before.

Yes, you can absolutely object to the change in the children's pediatrician. It would not be in there best interest to switch from a doctor they have been seeing for years. Remind dad that its not his unilateral decision and that you do not agree.

Yes, you can absolutely reschedule the dental appointments since it interferes with your vacation. Reschedule them for your custodial time though so that you are the one who has to deal with taking them.

 

[CandiceH]

CJane, I know what it is like to have an ex like yours. I am afraid of mine too and I dont know why. He has broken all three temporary court orders within 24 hours of them being signed. He did the same thing this weekend. Makes visitation arrangements with son, etc. Instead of discussing it with him, I write the letters to his attorney. I dont deal with the ex in any regards because it isnt worth it.

When you have someone that has a "superiority" complex it is hard to fight them. You have done a good job, though you made the mistake of stirring the waters by moving without notice. You have had to pay for that. Follow Ldij's advice. It is good advice. I am keeping this one in the back of MY mind for future use.
GL

 

[casa]

What is the name of your state? MO

Ok.

I was ordered to pay $1500 to my ex as part of his attorney's fees for moving w/out proper notice. The order came through in May, but was dated April.

He was ordered to pay me $400/month child support.

On Friday, he asked me if I would sign a 'letter of credit' - essentially agreeing to forego child support until that $1500 is paid. I told him I'd think about it.

He called this morning and told me that I had two choices... I could sign the letter of credit and go whithout child support for the next 3.75 months, or he would 'revoke' my vacatoin time with the kids which is supposed to start on Wednesday morning. He informed me that he would be here with the Sheriff @ 8 am on Wednesday unless I provided him this letter by Tuesday night. I said "So, now you're blackmailing me?" and he said "No. Using the only thing you care about as leverage. There's a difference."

So... questions.

I don't even think that CSE would allow such a thing. I wouldn't be forgiving arrears, I'd be basically telling them that it's ok with me if he doesn't pay for a few months. IF I agreed to this, do you think they'd even let me do that?

If I don't agree, and refuse to let him have the kids on Wednesday... how do I prove to the sheriff that it's supposed to be my vacation time, and not his custodial period?

Is there anything I can do, legally speaking, to keep him from attempting to use the kids/my visitation as leverage in the future? I realize that the easy answer is 'pay him', and he's on the list of people I need to pay... but he's nowhere near the top.

I've already decided that I'm not going to sign the letter... that it's not worth 4 months without child support just to have what amounts to 7 extra days with the kids. So, if he pushes this, I'll go without the vacation time. But I want to know what the legalities are with this... if there's anything I can do to nip this new control thing in the bud.

When the court ordered this, did they give a payment schedule for you? (ie; $50 month until it's paid, etc?) Typically when payments are ordered in court~ The court gives a guideline in which the party needs to pay.

Do you have a copy of the court transcripts? That is the way to prove what the court ordered until you receive your stamped finalized copy of the court order.

Anything he comes up with like this, You should ask him to e-mail or put the proposal in writing~ Because a history of 'threatening to deny' visitation is certainly going to end up biting him in the butt in the longrun.

Support & Visitation are 2 separate issues UNLESS the court orders that one party pay as a condition of visitation (Which is not the 'norm' and would be addressed in the court's ruling if that were the case)

 

[Noelle_71]

Thanks Ldi... that was the nicest pull your head out of your a$$ I've ever received. And YES, I know that you're right about his behavior. It's exactly what I went through during our entire marriage, it's what I watched my mom go through in her marriage to my father, it's what I'm sure his current wife is going through... and I want my kids to not have to deal with it. SO, I tend to give in so they don't deal with the fall out.

BUT. I will write the letter, I will make sure it's delivered to him by Tuesday, and then I'll see what happens. God willing, when I call his bluff, he won't push the envelope and make everything public...

Good luck, and take LdJ's advice, it's perfect.

 

[CJane]

When the court ordered this, did they give a payment schedule for you? (ie; $50 month until it's paid, etc?) Typically when payments are ordered in court~ The court gives a guideline in which the party needs to pay.

No, there is no payment schedule addressed. All the order says is "Respondent shall pay Petitioner the amount of $1500 to offset the amount of attorney's fees required to address the issue of moving without proper notice."

Do you have a copy of the court transcripts? That is the way to prove what the court ordered until you receive your stamped finalized copy of the court order.

I've got the final copy of the order. We received it in May.

Anything he comes up with like this, You should ask him to e-mail or put the proposal in writing~ Because a history of 'threatening to deny' visitation is certainly going to end up biting him in the butt in the longrun.

I'll try to do that. He's VERY leery (and understandably so) of putting ANYTHING in writing. Especially when he knows he's being unreasonable.

Support & Visitation are 2 separate issues UNLESS the court orders that one party pay as a condition of visitation (Which is not the 'norm' and would be addressed in the court's ruling if that were the case)

Yeah, I know. And this isn't even support/visitation, it's support/visitation/completely separate order. AND, it's the NCP attempting to withhold visitation unless I refuse child support... isn't it usually the CP attempting to refuse it unless the NCP pays?

Gawd, part of me feels like such a b*tch for not agreeing to this, because what if he really DOES need the money? But the other part of me thinks that maybe it's time that trust-fund-boy learned what it's like to actually be broke. (and yeah, I know this isn't a support forum) I wish I knew what he suddenly needed the money so badly FOR so that I could figure out for certain-sure what's in the kids' best interests with this one.

 

[ceara19]

Even though the court didn't set a time limit or payment schedule and you COULD make him jump through hoops to collect the money, it would probably be best to send SOMETHING on regular intervals. That way you can avoid making it SEEM like you are playing tit-for-tat because he is denying visitation (or threatening to). Even $5 dollars a month would show that you are making an EFFORT to pay the money.

Edit to add:

After everything that he has done to try and hurt you (which ended up hurting the CHILDREN even more), there is no reason you should feel like a b*tch for not bending over backwards to make him happy. You're under no obligation to make his life better or easier. You are ONLY responsible for doing what's best for the CHILDREN and stopping all or even PART of the child support payments for ANY amount of time is NOT in their best interests. It could easily cause a situation where they would SUFFER because you couldn't afford something they need until after the support payments start up again.