victim of counterfeit cashiers check scam

[Veronica1228]

It's cool. Kiss-kiss. Hug-hug. All better.

Seriously though, I agree that it stinks that innocent people continue to get taken by this scam. I don't know what kind of news articles or information have been published on this, but I didn't hear about it until I came to this site. It turns out that many, many people fall for this scam.

Unfortunately, I haven't heard of any of them getting their money back.

 

[Jypsy]

When I worked in banking, many years ago, there were courses we could take voluntarily that taught things like how to recognize counterfeit money and checks, etc. We weren't held accountable but we did have a superior knowledge of what things to look for and in my opinion, the bank manager wasn't prudent enough. At the very least, he should have known about this scam and warned the customer and at the most, he could have required a 7 to 10 day "hold" on the funds until they cleared.

For the FBI and the bank to treat this victim like he's totally responsible is how scams like this perpetuate. I think the bank manager dropped the ball.

I agree with whoever said to look for a good attorney.

Take it to the media, too and demand that banks take more responsibility for these types of transactions. The average person should not be required to have expertise in these areas, whereas it would save a lot of people a lot of time and money if banks would exercise better judgement. They are the ones with the experience, not your average citizen.

 

[jpritchett81]

When I worked in banking, many years ago, there were courses we could take voluntarily that taught things like how to recognize counterfeit money and checks, etc. We weren't held accountable but we did have a superior knowledge of what things to look for and in my opinion, the bank manager wasn't prudent enough. At the very least, he should have known about this scam and warned the customer and at the most, he could have required a 7 to 10 day "hold" on the funds until they cleared.

For the FBI and the bank to treat this victim like he's totally responsible is how scams like this perpetuate. I think the bank manager dropped the ball.

I agree with whoever said to look for a good attorney.

Take it to the media, too and demand that banks take more responsibility for these types of transactions. The average person should not be required to have expertise in these areas, whereas it would save a lot of people a lot of time and money if banks would exercise better judgement. They are the ones with the experience, not your average citizen.

I can see where you're coming from. It's really hard to say. This is a very well known scam now and I can understand a few still not knowing much about it. I guess what has me baffled is the amount. The amount of the check was way too suspicious. I feel should have been suspicious from a banker's point of view as well as the consumer's. I go by "if it's too good to be true...it often is".

 

[Veronica1228]

I can see where you're coming from. It's really hard to say. This is a very well known scam now and I can understand a few still not knowing much about it. I guess what has me baffled is the amount. The amount of the check was way too suspicious. I feel should have been suspicious from a banker's point of view as well as the consumer's. I go by "if it's too good to be true...it often is".

However, if it is a long-time customer of good standing, they may not even feel the need to question the check. Also, there are NO Fed Regulations that state that a bank can only accept a check deposit that they are certain is legit. I realize that eveyone, including myself, would like to see the OP come out okay on this, but the ugly truth is that she probably won't. If the bank did do anything wrong, which there is no proof that they did, the very worst that would happen is a fine and a slap on the wrist from the FTC. This would not get the OP their money back.

 

[kook-e]

I do not have a law degree, but I do have one in Finance. As a Banking Officer, I work very closely with the Legal and Regulatory departments of my bank, so I am quite qualified to answer this question..

Veronica, I do appreciate all your input but, I feel that you have a bias towards providing all banks with this sort of leeway. What I am trying to say is that banks should be held to a higher standard than consumers in fraud detection. They deal with these sort of instruments all day, every day. Being a part of the banking industry you should be aware of FDIC alerts that go out on a regular basis to warn bank officials of this sort of scam. In my research I have found out that this same bank had actually had a previous encounter with this type of scam a year ago. Why was there no sort of security measures taken to prevent this from happening again?

I consider myself to be an informed consumer. I like you hear of all sort of scams and never once did any "red flags" go up. I know that most of you feel like it could never happen to you, and I pray it never does but, I am an educated person with a minor and psychology and only after I was had did I begin to take notice of the way I was "played". I was drawn into this wretched mind game in incremental steps and was praised for my honesty along the way. If any of you would care to hear the details I will try and share the mental manipulation that makes these scams work.

In closing, I would just like to once again thank you for your input and ask that if you could possibly have any information that would help me and my young family out of this mess. I am the sole bread winner and have a 7 month old daughter and we are looking at losing our house over this mess. I have retained legal counsel but, it seems as though we are paying them to get an education in the UCC that deals with the banking laws. We did find some promise in a section that deals with timely returns of unpaid items. Maybe with your background you can provide more details as to the time limits associated with notifying me that the item was counterfeit.

Much appreciation with any legal foundation you can help me build.

 

[Veronica1228]

We did find some promise in a section that deals with timely returns of unpaid items. Maybe with your background you can provide more details as to the time limits associated with notifying me that the item was counterfeit.

Much appreciation with any legal foundation you can help me build.

Okay, we may finally have something here. How long was it between when you deposited the check, and when it was returned to your bank? Not to you, but your bank. Also, was it the original check or a photocopy in lieu of the original?

 

[kook-e]

I can see where you're coming from. It's really hard to say. This is a very well known scam now and I can understand a few still not knowing much about it. I guess what has me baffled is the amount. The amount of the check was way too suspicious. I feel should have been suspicious from a banker's point of view as well as the consumer's. I go by "if it's too good to be true...it often is".

Like I mentioned in an earlier post, in retrospect I can see where I got way too caught up in this to see it for what it was. Believe me....it can happen to anyone given the right set of circumstances.

$50,000 is a whole lot of stinking money. I had worked in the constuction industry for 15 years saving up to get the european car I had always dreamed of. I had an investment of $17,000 in the car that I desperately needed to get out since becoming a new father in November. I have only been married 19 months so you can imagine the anguish this is causing in our relationship.

Anyways, like I said this european car could be considered to be somewhat rare and when I originally purchased it off the internet, it was soley on pictures alone. I forwarded the seller the purchase price of the vehicle plus an additional $2,400 for shipping. Having this previous experience with the vehicle made it plausible to accept that the "buyer" wanted to have it shipped to Greece. Believe me even the FBI was amazed at how intricate and well thought out this whole scam was....

 

[kook-e]

Okay, we may finally have something here. How long was it between when you deposited the check, and when it was returned to your bank? Not to you, but your bank. Also, was it the original check or a photocopy in lieu of the original?

Thank you for some ray of hope...I deposited the check on March 4 and wasn't notified until March 21st that there was a problem. The car was not picked up until March 17 so if I could have found out about it before then I could have stopped the thieves from taking possession of the vehicle.

As far as how the check was presented, I do not know the specifics but I could ask my atty to find out if you can give some specific cases where it will make a difference.

Thanks for your help...

 

[Jypsy]

I've deposited checks before in the thousands of dollars and was not able to use those funds until the hold was off. It's called "uncollected funds" and sometimes banks won't even honor checks being routed through the clearinghouse if all you have are uncollected funds to cover it. Cashier's checks are treated differently, though. Still, the manager should have placed a hold on the money regardless of the urgency in which the customer needed the money. On the other hand, it really is up to the customer to allow for funds to clear before they use them.

I hope somehow it works out for these people. What a nightmare.

 

[Veronica1228]

Thank you for some ray of hope...I deposited the check on March 4 and wasn't notified until March 21st that there was a problem. The car was not picked up until March 17 so if I could have found out about it before then I could have stopped the thieves from taking possession of the vehicle.

As far as how the check was presented, I do not know the specifics but I could ask my atty to find out if you can give some specific cases where it will make a difference.

Thanks for your help...

You didn't quite answer my question, but here are the rules for Returned Deposited Items.

The issuing bank has 2 business days to return an original check to the BOFD. However, if the original check is lost or destroyed during processing, the issuing bank then has 6 months to return the check to the BOFD.

Keep in mind that this is when it was returned to your bank, not when you were notified.

 

[Veronica1228]

I hope somehow it works out for these people. What a nightmare.

For the first time today you and I are in complete agreement!

 

[Veronica1228]

Clarification

Just to clarify, that 2 biz day/6 mo. timeline I mentioned is after the deposit date. In other words, if you deposited a check during business hours yesterday 6/29 and the check was being returned, it would have to be returned no later than tomorrow 7/1. The only exception is if it is a photocopy, then it must be returned no later than 12/29 (approx.).

If the issuing bank did NOT meet this deadline, then your bank has to file a Late Return Claim. The loss should be that of the issuing bank not the BOFD which is your bank. It can take a couple of months for this process to go through though, unless your bank is willing to issue provisional credit. PC has it's pros and cons too, so discuss this with your banker before requesting it. You could end up just delaying this situation, not solving it.

Good luck.

 

[kook-e]

Just to clarify, that 2 biz day/6 mo. timeline I mentioned is after the deposit date. In other words, if you deposited a check during business hours yesterday 6/29 and the check was being returned, it would have to be returned no later than tomorrow 7/1. The only exception is if it is a photocopy, then it must be returned no later than 12/29 (approx.).

If the issuing bank did NOT meet this deadline, then your bank has to file a Late Return Claim. The loss should be that of the issuing bank not the BOFD which is your bank. It can take a couple of months for this process to go through though, unless your bank is willing to issue provisional credit. PC has it's pros and cons too, so discuss this with your banker before requesting it. You could end up just delaying this situation, not solving it.

Good luck.

Thank you for the information, I'll make sure to share it with my counselor.

Just between you and I, don't you feel the bank has any sort of responsibility since they knew the circumstances under which I received the check and how they actually assisted me in losing the funds? Once again, I just want to reiterate that I did not have more than a few thousand in deposits with this bank and wouldn't consider myself a "preferred" customer. I understand that if I did have that much available funds then any monies they provided me would be set off against my deposits but, they accepted this check as "negotiable" by paying off the auto loan, sending the title to the buyer, and by giving me cash to send to the "shipper". I can't help but feel that they need to accept some of the responsibility.

 

[Veronica1228]

Thank you for the information, I'll make sure to share it with my counselor.

Just between you and I, don't you feel the bank has any sort of responsibility since they knew the circumstances under which I received the check and how they actually assisted me in losing the funds? Once again, I just want to reiterate that I did not have more than a few thousand in deposits with this bank and wouldn't consider myself a "preferred" customer. I understand that if I did have that much available funds then any monies they provided me would be set off against my deposits but, they accepted this check as "negotiable" by paying off the auto loan, sending the title to the buyer, and by giving me cash to send to the "shipper". I can't help but feel that they need to accept some of the responsibility.

I can certainly see why you would feel that way. My problem is that I know the law as it pertains to banking. If I am looking at this as just black and white, there were no Federal Regulations broken. Except for perhaps Reg CC which is the Reg that deals with Returned Checks (Reg J may also apply).

I know, I'm still thinking like a banker, however I am also being practical. You can certainly take the bank to court, and I am not saying that you will absolutely lose. I am just pointing out the law as I know it.

I sincerely hope that you do win. Good luck.

 

[kook-e]

I can certainly see why you would feel that way. My problem is that I know the law as it pertains to banking. If I am looking at this as just black and white, there were no Federal Regulations broken. Except for perhaps Reg CC which is the Reg that deals with Returned Checks (Reg J may also apply).

I know, I'm still thinking like a banker, however I am also being practical. You can certainly take the bank to court, and I am not saying that you will absolutely lose. I am just pointing out the law as I know it.

I sincerely hope that you do win. Good luck.

I understand your point and appreciate the encouraging sentiments. My counsel seems to agree with you, in so far as the law is written, to place any loss on the seller (me). In a general sense I can actually agree with the logic of the law but, with these extenuating circumstances I feel as though I should find sympathy with a jury.

In reality though, I am tapped out financially and trying to fight a legal battle against two banks, one of which is Bank of America, is an endeavor I cannot pursue on my own. When my local bank first found out that the check was fraudulent they immediately froze my checking, savings and certificates of deposit which left me scrambling to my parents for financial help. My family has done all they can for us and sometime soon I will have to scream "uncle" and take my licks.......

I keep hope that I can somehow find an attorney who will work with us on the sheer merit of the case and set a precedent to force banks to be more responsible for the sake of all depositers. The worst case scenario is that I am forced to file for bankruptcy and start over again. Who gains from this? The bank in the end will simply write off the loss as a cost of doing business and the depositors will ultimately pay for this fraud. Something has to change....Please send this message to any one in the legal profession who might have experience with this sort of litigation and would be willing to help.