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weird situation with boundary question

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John Se

Member
How much money are we talking about?

This matters because it will give you an estimate of how much they are willing to fight. I think you need to offer to purchase the "other vacant lot". If that wont work, do nothing, I am betting that they cant afford to fight, or will have only so much fight($$$) in them. You see it costs money to fight wars, and the only thing people really fight over (with Lawyers) is money or land or both.
 


bbear401

Member
I dis agree that color of tilte and claim of right are the same or synonomous. Under claim of right one as several courts have put it " a person can be nothing more than a black hearted tresspasser " "as nothing can be more hostile to the true owner than occupying and using the land of another.

I pressumes that the lots are located in southwest florida, where many of these online sales are taken place. Many times the bidders are not even aware they are bidding on a tax lein or a tax title not knowing they will have to forclose the right of redemtion.

As to the question of adversely possesion land agaisnt one self, this is true,,one cannot adverse posses land of oneselfs or land for which they hold under leagl title,, such as an easement. I include here some language from one case, while it includes case law from Rhode Island Florida has more case law to this point.
Adverse Possession

As a matter of law the Plaintiffs cannot prevail on their adverse possession claim under any set of facts for property within the easement that they have legal title to. The Plaintiffs cannot prevail under any set of facts for their adverse possession claim as there claim is in and for an area that they hold by permission through there legal title. The Plaintiffs deed states “a right of way to pass and repass from said parcel over and across a forty foot driftway to Old School Street”. This clause is express permission by the way of a deeded easement. The Rhode Island courts have consistently held that "[w]here a party is in actual possession, and has a right to possession under a legal title which is not adverse, but claims the possession under another title which is adverse, the possession will not in law be deemed adverse." ST. JEAN PLACE CONDOMINIUM ASSOCIATION v. Raymond DeLEO et al., 745 A.2d 738 (2000) (quoting Searle v. Laraway, 27 R.I. 557, 560, 65 A. 269, 271 (1906) (quoting Nichols v. Reynolds, 1 R.I. 30, 38, 36 Am. Dec. 238 (1840)). See also 3 Am.Jur.2d Adverse Possession § 50 (1986) ("[a] possession that is in law rightful and not an invasion of the rights of others is never deemed to be adverse"). Further any obstruction of this way by the Plaintiffs will never rise to a prescriptive right. The courts held in Flagg v. Phillips, 201 Mass. 216, 87 N. E. 598, whereas an easement holder tried to acquire prescriptive rights to maintain obstruction “The law presumes that the character of the occupation, having been at first not adverse, continues to be of the same nature in the absence of some conduct indicating a change. Rhode Island cases uniformly hold that a period of possession cannot be deemed “adverse” or “hostile” if the property is occupied with permission. Martineau v. King, 386 A.2d 1117, 1119 (R.I. 1978). Under Rhode Island law, use of land by permission will never give rise to a property right by prescription. Altieri v. Dolan, 423 A.2d 482, 484 (R.I. 1980); Henry v. Dalton, 89 R.I. 150, 154, 151 A.2d 362 (1959).


It is highly unlikely that these two parcels where in the same name and sold at tax sale as seperate parcels. If they are in the area for which i am fimiliar, the are legal non-conforming lots and if theywere held in the same name or with unity of title or ownership, the would have been operationaly merged and quite possibly are merged by the very fact of the building encroachments. So if the lots were operationly merged, then any subdivision of them now with out proper city or local approvals may well cloud the title to both parcels. Has any given thought to purchasing the undeveloped lot?
 
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Shel77

Member
bbear;

Since the OP said "they seem unwilling to sell us theirs" I assume they have given thought to this wouldn't you?

The lots were not in the same name at the time of the tax sell OP said "We believe this is what happened - both lots were owned by the mother since 1977- mom died ,left it to the kids with one of theirs names on each lot in 1997."
 

bbear401

Member
also please be aware,,I don't recommened to offer to purchase property that you are contemplating to make an adverse possesion claim agaisnt. Many states hold this out to be an admission that you do not claim title under color of right, color of title,or claim of right.

I always suggest that if you wish to make an offer to purchase that property, instead make an offer to settle the dispute in exchange for cash,,,you get the land

Bill
 

bbear401

Member
thanks shell for pointing that out to me,,,,me response was to the poster that said you cannot adverse your own land,,,,,,which is true,,,and not germain to this thread,,,lol
 

divgradcurl

Senior Member
bbear401 said:
I dis agree that color of tilte and claim of right are the same or synonomous. Under claim of right one as several courts have put it " a person can be nothing more than a black hearted tresspasser " "as nothing can be more hostile to the true owner than occupying and using the land of another.

I pressumes that the lots are located in southwest florida, where many of these online sales are taken place. Many times the bidders are not even aware they are bidding on a tax lein or a tax title not knowing they will have to forclose the right of redemtion.

As to the question of adversely possesion land agaisnt one self, this is true,,one cannot adverse posses land of oneselfs or land for which they hold under leagl title,, such as an easement. I include here some language from one case, while it includes case law from Rhode Island Florida has more case law to this point.
Adverse Possession

As a matter of law the Plaintiffs cannot prevail on their adverse possession claim under any set of facts for property within the easement that they have legal title to. The Plaintiffs cannot prevail under any set of facts for their adverse possession claim as there claim is in and for an area that they hold by permission through there legal title. The Plaintiffs deed states “a right of way to pass and repass from said parcel over and across a forty foot driftway to Old School Street”. This clause is express permission by the way of a deeded easement. The Rhode Island courts have consistently held that "[w]here a party is in actual possession, and has a right to possession under a legal title which is not adverse, but claims the possession under another title which is adverse, the possession will not in law be deemed adverse." ST. JEAN PLACE CONDOMINIUM ASSOCIATION v. Raymond DeLEO et al., 745 A.2d 738 (2000) (quoting Searle v. Laraway, 27 R.I. 557, 560, 65 A. 269, 271 (1906) (quoting Nichols v. Reynolds, 1 R.I. 30, 38, 36 Am. Dec. 238 (1840)). See also 3 Am.Jur.2d Adverse Possession § 50 (1986) ("[a] possession that is in law rightful and not an invasion of the rights of others is never deemed to be adverse"). Further any obstruction of this way by the Plaintiffs will never rise to a prescriptive right. The courts held in Flagg v. Phillips, 201 Mass. 216, 87 N. E. 598, whereas an easement holder tried to acquire prescriptive rights to maintain obstruction “The law presumes that the character of the occupation, having been at first not adverse, continues to be of the same nature in the absence of some conduct indicating a change. Rhode Island cases uniformly hold that a period of possession cannot be deemed “adverse” or “hostile” if the property is occupied with permission. Martineau v. King, 386 A.2d 1117, 1119 (R.I. 1978). Under Rhode Island law, use of land by permission will never give rise to a property right by prescription. Altieri v. Dolan, 423 A.2d 482, 484 (R.I. 1980); Henry v. Dalton, 89 R.I. 150, 154, 151 A.2d 362 (1959).


It is highly unlikely that these two parcels where in the same name and sold at tax sale as seperate parcels. If they are in the area for which i am fimiliar, the are legal non-conforming lots and if theywere held in the same name or with unity of title or ownership, the would have been operationaly merged and quite possibly are merged by the very fact of the building encroachments. So if the lots were operationly merged, then any subdivision of them now with out proper city or local approvals may well cloud the title to both parcels. Has any given thought to purchasing the undeveloped lot?

Maybe I missed something, but isn't the property here located in California? If so, what's the point in describing the AP rules in Rhode Island, or anywhere else?

CA has the same basic AP rules as everywhere else -- open and notorious possession, hostile to the true owner, and for the statutory period -- CA has a short statutory period -- 5 years -- but you must have paid the property taxes on the property you wish to acquire via AP for those 5 years, in addition to the other AP factors. There is no requirement for "color ot title" or anything like it in CA.
 

Shel77

Member
This is just a question; if the above is true, five years in CA then if the land has been two seperate lots for over 5 years and this lot that he purchased has had the taxes for that building would that work? Or would HE have to pay the taxes for 5 years himself not just the fact that the taxes for that lot have included that building and obviously the land under it?
 

divgradcurl

Senior Member
Shel77 said:
This is just a question; if the above is true, five years in CA then if the land has been two seperate lots for over 5 years and this lot that he purchased has had the taxes for that building would that work? Or would HE have to pay the taxes for 5 years himself not just the fact that the taxes for that lot have included that building and obviously the land under it?
You would have to somehow prove that the property taxes you were paying also included taxes for those parts of the other guy's property that you were encroaching on. I don't have any idea how you might prove that -- generally, in CA, you cannot "imply" that you are payting taxes on someone else's property -- it has to be explicit, in the county records.

The whole purpose of this requirement goes back to the early days of the state when the railroad companies owned great big pieces of land to eventually build train tracks thorugh -- there was no way for them to easily go out and visually determine that nobody was trying to acquire land via AP -- there was just too much land at stake -- and so they got the state to make it so that you had to pay property taxes on the land which you were trying to AP -- that way, you could go down to the tax records office every so often, and see if anyone was trying to AP your property.

So, given the policy behind the rule, the payment of taxes has to be "explicit" otherwise it doesn't serve the "notice" requirement that the law was passed to provide.

The OP should consult an attorney who can review ALL of the facts of the situation and advise accordingly -- but because of the tax requirement, AP in CA is pretty darn uncommon...
 
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Shel77

Member
this is why I asked Op stated " It was built in 1977 with the usual permits and this/our lot has always carried the tax burden for it. We are wondering about "adverse possession" and if it'd apply here.Also why didn't the owners of the other lot claim the addition and start paying the taxes? " So if that lot has always had the taxes for that building I assumed he might be able to claim AP.
 

divgradcurl

Senior Member
Shel77 said:
this is why I asked Op stated " It was built in 1977 with the usual permits and this/our lot has always carried the tax burden for it. We are wondering about "adverse possession" and if it'd apply here.Also why didn't the owners of the other lot claim the addition and start paying the taxes? " So if that lot has always had the taxes for that building I assumed he might be able to claim AP.
Well, if you read the original post and the replies (especially the ones made by seniorjudge), it appears that the land wasn't divided until the recent tax sale, and as seniorjudge noted, you cannot adversely possess land that you already own -- kinda like how an easement becomes extinguished when the same person ends up owning both the dominant and servient propery. So, in any event, it doesn't look like the statutory time period has run in any event.

But back to your question -- if both parcels had been separate the whole time, and if the one party was paying taxes on their property plus the entire structure, and the other party KNEW that the sructure enchroached, then that might create an AP situation, because the true owner had "notice" of the encroachment and the other party was paying taxes. But if the building was built and both parties (and apparently the county) were ignorant of the true property lines, then it is pretty unlikely that you would be able to show that the tax records gave notice to the true owner for pruposes of AP. Then again, I don't practice this type of law, so an expert in AP and CA property law might be able to find a way through this somehow, but those are the general rules. Also, remember that AP is disfavored in virtually all (if not all) jurisdictions, so the burden of proof is clearly on the party claiming AP.

But anyway, like SJ noted long ago, it doesn't look as if the statutory period has passed in any event, so this is a moot point.
 

gfro

Member
divgradcurl said:
Well, if you read the original post and the replies (especially the ones made by seniorjudge), it appears that the land wasn't divided until the recent tax sale, and as seniorjudge noted, you cannot adversely possess land that you already own -- kinda like how an easement becomes extinguished when the same person ends up owning both the dominant and servient propery. So, in any event, it doesn't look like the statutory time period has run in any event.

But back to your question -- if both parcels had been separate the whole time, and if the one party was paying taxes on their property plus the entire structure, and the other party KNEW that the sructure enchroached, then that might create an AP situation, because the true owner had "notice" of the encroachment and the other party was paying taxes. But if the building was built and both parties (and apparently the county) were ignorant of the true property lines, then it is pretty unlikely that you would be able to show that the tax records gave notice to the true owner for pruposes of AP. Then again, I don't practice this type of law, so an expert in AP and CA property law might be able to find a way through this somehow, but those are the general rules. Also, remember that AP is disfavored in virtually all (if not all) jurisdictions, so the burden of proof is clearly on the party claiming AP.

But anyway, like SJ noted long ago, it doesn't look as if the statutory period has passed in any event, so this is a moot point.
The brother and sister that inherited these 2 lots from their mom owned them seperately from each other since 1997-I don't see how the brother could not be aware of the adddition being on his lot.I personally don't think the people who bought the lot next door would have bought it knowing the addition was 10 ft. over if someone hadn't made some promise to set them up with the property we bought.
 

divgradcurl

Senior Member
gfro said:
The brother and sister that inherited these 2 lots from their mom owned them seperately from each other since 1997-I don't see how the brother could not be aware of the adddition being on his lot.I personally don't think the people who bought the lot next door would have bought it knowing the addition was 10 ft. over if someone hadn't made some promise to set them up with the property we bought.
Then go see a real estate attorney, maybe they can figure something out for you.
 

divgradcurl

Senior Member
bbear401 said:
color of titile and claim of right and color of right come from case law not statute.
Have you read the Rhode Island statutes?

"§ 34-7-1 Conclusive title by peaceful possession under claim of title. – Where any person or persons, or others from whom he, she, or they derive their title, either by themselves, tenants or lessees, shall have been for the space of ten (10) years in the uninterrupted, quiet, peaceful and actual seisin and possession of any lands, tenements or hereditaments for and during that time, claiming the same as his, her or their proper, sole and rightful estate in fee simple, the actual seisin and possession shall be allowed to give and make a good and rightful title to the person or persons, their heirs and assigns forever; and any plaintiff suing for the recovery of any such lands may rely upon the possession as conclusive title thereto, and this chapter being pleaded in bar to any action that shall be brought for the lands, tenements or hereditaments, and the actual seisin and possession being duly proved, shall be allowed to be good, valid and effectual in law for barring the action."

That's statute, not caselaw.

In any event, Rhode Island statutes and caselaw have absolutely no bearing on an adverse possession case for property in California.
 

bbear401

Member
II have added a quick cut and paste of a california case and highlighted just a few of the color of title and claim of rights quotes throughout. Rhode island gen laws do include this language,,as our laws have been recently amended in 1995 to reflect decisions throughout the country.



Pease v. Gibson , 37 Cal.App.2d 353
[Civ. No. 6211. Third Appellate District. February 16, 1940.]
EDITH PEASE, Respondent, v. ERNEST L. GIBSON, as Administrator, etc., Appellant.

COUNSEL

Rich, Weis & Carlin and Richard E. Fuidge for Appellant.

Hewitt & McBride for Respondent.


OPINION
Pullen, P. J.

This is an appeal from a judgment rendered against the administrator of the estate of Rachel C. Gibson, deceased.

The action was one to quiet title, and the court found plaintiff to be the owner of the property in question, and made the further finding that defendant had no interest therein.

Appellant, who is the son of Rachel C. Gibson, deceased, takes the position that the property in question, to the extent of the interest of Rachel as tenant in common, is subject to administration even though respondent may have gained title thereto by adverse possession. No administration was had or sought of the estate of Rachel Gibson until 1935, at which time appellant was appointed administrator. [37 Cal.App.2d 354]

Rachel C. Gibson, the deceased, took an interest in this property as a tenant in common with her husband by way of a deed which was executed and recorded in 1892. Rachel died in 1916, and her husband, William Gibson, married Arvilla. In 1925 William Gibson conveyed the whole of this property by gift deed to Arvilla Gibson, his wife. This deed was recorded in July, 1925. Arvilla Gibson conveyed this property to Emily Huffmaster, the mother of respondent, by deed in 1928. This deed was recorded in May, 1929. Emily Huffmaster died in 1930, and this property was distributed to respondent and her brother, Earl Huffmaster in 1931. By deed dated and recorded September 5, 1931, Earl Huffmaster conveyed his interest in the property to respondent. Since the time of the grant by William Gibson to Arvilla, the latter and her grantee, Emily Huffmaster, and respondent herein, have been in possession of the property, have fenced and made improvements to it and paid all taxes thereon up to the year 1935.

[1] We are of the opinion that the judgment in favor of respondent is proper and that appellant has no interest in the property in question, either as administrator of the estate of Rachel C. Gibson or as heir thereto. The findings are adequately supported by the evidence of good title by adverse possession in the respondent. Even though it were to be presumed that privity of estate, for the purpose of title by adverse possession did not exist as between Arvilla Gibson and the mother of respondent, nevertheless, the evidence shows that respondent's mother went into possession of the property under deed and color of title in May, 1929. This deed was recorded the same day.

The possession of the property by respondent's mother under color of title, together with the possession thereof by respondent under color of title, is sufficient to satisfy the requirements of adverse possession and vest title in said respondent without considering the question as to whether possession under deed by Arvilla Gibson may be taken advantage of by respondent. The requirements as to taxes and improvements have been adequately fulfilled. There appears to have been sufficient elements present to have satisfied the requirements of title by adverse possession under claim of right, which requires a stronger showing than necessary under a deed furnishing color of title. In the latter situation, [37 Cal.App.2d 355] and the one under which respondent has gained title by adverse possession, the element of honest belief of title under a deed is present and consequently there is not the requirement of all of the acts called for as in the case where one takes over property claiming title thereto as a matter of right. There is no evidence of bad faith on the part of respondent or her mother. There is nothing to show that they questioned title in Arvilla Gibson, or her right to convey the same. This being true, it cannot be said that respondent has claimed title under the heirs of Rachel C. Gibson, but rather that title has been asserted in opposition to the heirs of the decedent. It cannot be claimed on the other hand that title by adverse possession has been acquired against the administrator, as respondent's title was complete before administration began.

In the case of Tynan v. Walker, 35 Cal. 634 [95 Am. Dec. 152], the administrator was appointed twelve years after the death of the decedent and brought an action in ejectment against the defendant who had been in possession for some twelve years, under claim of right to certain lands belonging to decedent. The court held that defendant's plea of the statute of limitations was well taken, and that the action was barred, regardless of the fact that no administrator had been appointed prior to that time. There appears to be no reason why respondent should not be placed in the same position as one who has gained title by adverse possession under claim of right.
The case of Jones v. Scobie, 12 Cal.2d 618 [86 PaCal.2d 820, 121 A.L.R. 1404], appears to be controlling as to the issues before us in this case. There the plaintiff went into possession of the property in question, and recorded his deed twelve years before the issuance of letters of administration upon the grantor's estate. The deed to plaintiff was defective as it failed to measure up to the legal requirements of delivery, but was sufficient to constitute a color of title. In passing upon the question as to whether plaintiff could gain title by adverse possession as against the other cotenants, the court said:

"Although there are some decisions to the contrary, the weight of authority seems to support the doctrine that where a tenant in common enters into possession and claims under an invalid deed purporting to convey the property to him, the [37 Cal.App.2d 356] recordation of the deed is notice to his cotenants of its existence and therefore of the adverse character of his claim, so as to start the statute of limitations running, at least where, as here, he knew nothing of the existence of the other cotenants."

In answer to the objection that even if plaintiff could and did hold adversely to his coheirs, he did not establish adverse possession against the estate, the court said in the Jones case, supra, at page 627:

"He did not take the property during administration, or from the estate. His title by adverse possession, ... was complete before administration began. The mere possibility of some future proceedings in administration could not completely bar the acquisition of an adverse title. It would seem clear that if adverse possession can be gained against the other heirs, who have the legal title, it certainly can be gained against such claims as the executor or administrator may have for purposes of administration." (Emphasis added.)

See Murdock v. Mitchell, 30 Ga. 74 [76 Am. Dec. 634].

We conclude that respondent is the owner of the real property, which was the subject-matter of the action to quiet title herein, and that no interest in said real property is subject to administration.

The judgment is affirmed.

Thompson, J., and Tuttle, J., concurred.
 

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