• FreeAdvice has a new Terms of Service and Privacy Policy, effective May 25, 2018.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our Terms of Service and use of cookies.

Were my 4th Amendment Rights Violated?

Accident - Bankruptcy - Criminal Law / DUI - Business - Consumer - Employment - Family - Immigration - Real Estate - Tax - Traffic - Wills   Please click a topic or scroll down for more.

JakeB

Member
What would you try to achieve with a lawsuit? Assuming you can prove that your rights were violated, you'd probably only be entitled to the violation being thrown out. You wouldn't get a monetary award.


The 4th AM was made applicable to the states in 1949, the Exclusionary rule in 1961.
What? The 4th Amendment was made applicable to the states in 1868 with the adoption of the 14th Amendment.
 


justalayman

Senior Member
What would you try to achieve with a lawsuit? Assuming you can prove that your rights were violated, you'd probably only be entitled to the violation being thrown out. You wouldn't get a monetary award.
isn't it enough that one wants to defend their constitutional rights? I surely believe it is. I just believe absent proof of the violation, he has no chance of winning.
 

BOR

Senior Member
BOR said:
The 4th AM was made applicable to the states in 1949, the Exclusionary rule in 1961.


What? The 4th Amendment was made applicable to the states in 1868 with the adoption of the 14th Amendment.
No, it was incorporated to apply to the states in 1949 in Wolf v. Colorado "by and through" the 14th AM. There are still some of the provisions of the Bill of Rights not applicable to the states.
 

JakeB

Member
isn't it enough that one wants to defend their constitutional rights? I surely believe it is. I just believe absent proof of the violation, he has no chance of winning.
Sure, but why would she want to spend $5k in attorney's fees to have a $50 violation thrown out? I'm obviously guessing at the figures, but I'd be surprised if the benefit is worth the cost.

As for proof, since when does a citizen need to prove that a government search is unlawful? I'm pretty sure it's the other way around.
 

justalayman

Senior Member
JakeB;2664351]Sure, but why would she want to spend $5k in attorney's fees to have a $50 violation thrown out? I'm obviously guessing at the figures, but I'd be surprised if the benefit is worth the cost.
what are your rights worth? It is more than the violation at stake here. Many municipal governments do things such as this appears to be and claim some BS immunity due to them being who they are. Personally, I applaud the guy for standing up for his rights.

As for proof, since when does a citizen need to prove that a government search is unlawful? I'm pretty sure it's the other way around.
what search? There are means that the information could have been obtained that were completely legal. Unless the OP can show that the information was obtained by illegal means, I believe he is not going to prevail. So, when there are legal and illegal means to have gained the same information, unless the OP can prove it was by the illegal methods, all he has is suspicion and accusation.
 

JakeB

Member
what are your rights worth? It is more than the violation at stake here. Many municipal governments do things such as this appears to be and claim some BS immunity due to them being who they are. Personally, I applaud the guy for standing up for his rights.
If he can afford the fight, that's great. I applaud him as well. I simply made sure that he knew that he wasn't in for a big pay day if he wins.

what search? There are means that the information could have been obtained that were completely legal. Unless the OP can show that the information was obtained by illegal means, I believe he is not going to prevail. So, when there are legal and illegal means to have gained the same information, unless the OP can prove it was by the illegal methods, all he has is suspicion and accusation.
And again, if questioned, the burden will be on the government to prove that the information was obtained legally.
 

JakeB

Member
No, it was incorporated to apply to the states in 1949 in Wolf v. Colorado "by and through" the 14th AM. There are still some of the provisions of the Bill of Rights not applicable to the states.
Okay, I see what you're saying. That may have been when the SC first ruled that the 14th made the 4th applicable to the states.
 

justalayman

Senior Member
And again, if questioned, the burden will be on the government to prove that the information was obtained legally.
Not true but even if it were, do you really think the gov agent will not simply make up some legal method they claim to have used to obtain the info? Unless the OP can prove the evidence was not obtainable by any legal means, he will lose unless the gov agent admits to the illegal action.

. I simply made sure that he knew that he wasn't in for a big pay day if he wins.
Violations of one's civil rights are actionable beyond merely applying the exclusionary rule to the evidence obtained via an illegal search.
 

JakeB

Member
Not true but even if it were, do you really think the gov agent will not simply make up some legal method they claim to have used to obtain the info? Unless the OP can prove the evidence was not obtainable by any legal means, he will lose unless the gov agent admits to the illegal action.
Of course it's true. The OP can state that there was no way that the inspector could have gotten the info without an illegal search. Do you really think the judge is going to say "prove it," rather than just ask the inspector how the information was obtained? And yes, the inspector could lie. He could lie regardless of who has the burden. Police can also lie in criminal cases. That doesn't mean evidence is never suppressed.

Violations of one's civil rights are actionable beyond merely applying the exclusionary rule to the evidence obtained via an illegal search.
Yes. They can sue for their damages. I'm sure that will go well for the OP.
 

justalayman

Senior Member
JakeB;2664445]Of course it's true. The OP can state that there was no way that the inspector could have gotten the info without an illegal search
. he flew overhead in a plane.

Now, can you prove otherwise?





]Do you really think the judge is going to say "prove it," rather than just ask the inspector how the information was obtained?
yes I do because the accuser is responsible for proving their claim, not the opposite. In a civil suit, the onus is upon the plaintiff to prove their claim. The defendant does not have to prove they didn't do something.

and what I think would happen in the court:

OP; the agent used illegal means to obtain the evidence used to file a citation.

judge; and what illegal means would that be

OP; I don't know but I do not think there is any way to obtain the evidence without using illegal means.

judge; but you have no proof there were any illegal actions, right?

OP; other than I cannot see any other means of obtaining the evidence.

Judge; ok, fine. since the gov agent or agency is not on trial and since he isn't even here, I see no reason to accept your argument as valid. Guilty; pay the bailiff the fine.
 

justalayman

Senior Member
Wouldn't you ask them in discovery how they came upon the information?
I suspect there is no discovery in disputing a violation of a civil ordinance. He would most likely have to continue up the line a court or two before getting to the point of discovery.

----------------------------------------------------------

this is from their website:

1. The Division of Housing Services will accept anonymous complaints for exterior problems; Housing Services maintains confidentiality of the complainant’s identity. Interior complaints require your name, telephone number and address when reporting a violation. This is important if the need arises for additional information and allows City staff to contact you regarding the status of the investigation.

2.Please provide the address of the location of the violation to include street number, street name, specific location on the property. (For example: “Trash in the front yard of 123 Anywhere Street”)

3.Please provide as complete and detailed description of the violation as you can. This information will assist City staff in conducting a thorough investigation.
anonymous complaints. So, the inspector says it was an anonymous complaint. We don't know if the inspector actually saw the tarp (although it would be reasonable to presume they did). Maybe they issue citations on anonymous complaints and simply figure the party will argue the citation if improper.

or, maybe the neighbor complained and allowed the inspector access to whatever point of observation allowed one to view the blue tarp.

OP appears to have a reasonable argument that he is not violating the ordinance anyway. He was cited for having a blue tarp in his yard. He clearly stated he doesn't have a blue tarp in his yard. He has a pool cover that looks like a blue tarp. Obviously the OP is concerning with the method of observation but figured I would toss that out anyway.
 

tranquility

Senior Member
Well, if it was in court because it was an ordinance, then the burden of proof would be on the government. Then, the person(s) making the accusation would have to be there.

That's what confused me about the dialog.
 

carguy31

Member
my take...

of course fight it.

yes, they should have to prove their method of discovery.
b/c it is the government they are to follow the 4th amendment.
so even being anonymous if/when the time came the person claiming to be violated is, by the constitution, supposed to see the one making the claim.

FURTHER is it illegal to have a blue tarp in your yard??!!??
I thought this was Land of the Free, Home of the Brave!!

how is being fined for having a blue tarp in your back yard in ANYWAY considered free...
 

racer72

Senior Member
my take...

of course fight it.

yes, they should have to prove their method of discovery.
b/c it is the government they are to follow the 4th amendment.
so even being anonymous if/when the time came the person claiming to be violated is, by the constitution, supposed to see the one making the claim.

FURTHER is it illegal to have a blue tarp in your yard??!!??
I thought this was Land of the Free, Home of the Brave!!

how is being fined for having a blue tarp in your back yard in ANYWAY considered free...
Please state the exact text from the 4th Amendment that states that having ugly blue tarps is a right. This is the land of the free and home of the brave. It's also the land that I don't want my neighbors turning my neighborhood into a ghetto.
 

Find the Right Lawyer for Your Legal Issue!

Fast, Free, and Confidential
data-ad-format="auto">
Top