What books do attorneys reference for federal court cases?

[tranquility]

Do you think there's a "Civil Procedure for Dummies" book sitting around the law offices?

Um...yes?

http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/ediscovery-federal-rules-of-civil-procedure-and-fe.html
http://www.amazon.com/Paralegal-Career-Dummies-Scott-Hatch/dp/0471799564

 

[quincy]

A book about the Rules Federal Rules of Civil Procedure that might allow me to understand mysterious (to me) advice like, "Scroll to 6.3.B.2., Rule 15" better might be nice to own. Such a book might say "12(b) is the most common.."

Okay. This is beginning to bug me.

I was trained long ago as a journalist to write to an 8th grade level and I really hope I am not losing this ability.

To the 8th Graders out there:
If you are provided with this link - http://federalpracticemanual.org/node/35 - and told to "Scroll to 6.3.B.2, Rule 15," do any of you have difficulty understanding this?

Visit the website and let me know if you can figure it out. Thanks.

 

[Zigner]

Okay. This is beginning to bug me.

I was trained long ago as a journalist to write to an 8th grade level and I really hope I am not losing this ability.

To the 8th Graders out there: If you are provided with this link - http://federalpracticemanual.org/node/35 - and told to "Scroll to 6.3.B.2, Rule 15," do any of you have difficulty understanding this?

I'm fairly certain my (now) 6th grade nephew could have done that last year.

 

[single317dad]

In my possession, I have some advanced tools of my trade. Those tools, collected over a long period of time, cost me many thousands of dollars. These tools allow me to practice my craft with a good bit of expertise.

I also possess many tools for home repair, auto repair, forest management, farm implements, and fishery equipment. Those tools, also collected over a long period of time (and some passed down through generations), cost many thousands of dollars. These tools allow me to perform certain tasks adequately.

I also have basic materials related to law, chemistry, and green energy. These are topics which interest me, so I've spent a few hundred bucks pursuing them. I have no delusions regarding my expertise in any of these fields.

The point it this: the tools of a lawyer (education, reference materials, and experience) are expensive, as they are for most any professional field. Buying a few $20 books to handle your court case is akin to browsing WebMD prior to a home appendectomy. Believe me, in my field, people try to do their own work all the time, then come to me to fix the disaster they created. Your disaster might not be fixable by the time you seek professional help.

 

[suitandtie]

Your disaster might not be fixable by the time you seek professional help.

I had no idea this thread was about any "disaster." From reading the OP I mistakenly had thought the thread was to be about books. Thanks so much for for keeping this thread on point and explaining to all what the OP was asking for, since he or she clearly didn't know.

 

[single317dad]

I had no idea this thread was about any "disaster." From reading the OP I mistakenly had thought the thread was to be about books. Thanks so much for for keeping this thread on point and explaining to all what the OP was asking for, since he or she clearly didn't know.

Hush, you.

 

[TigerD]

My goals were stated above: I have a gap in my library and I want to fill it.

In that case, I suggest the Harvard Classics. I acquired a set of the Harvard Classics and read them from cover to cover, transforming myself from a pretty dumb high school drop out to a fairly well educated man with multiple advanced degrees. That and a love of Kipling, Tennyson, and the Bard.

TD

 

[tranquility]

In the general sense, I agree with the others. A few books, especially inexpensive ones, is not going to give a person anything but extremely superficial knowledge about the law. Heck, LAW SCHOOL is not going to give a person anything but an extremely superficial knowledge about the law. While I did not attend the finest school in the land (Think third-tier and then drop it a couple.), I read the same books as those in the finest in the land. At the end of the day, what one gets for much time, treasure and trouble is an outline. "Mind map" rather than "outline" is probably a better term. But, the key is spotting issues. You go down the outline in your head and for each "issue" you research it. That is the second benefit from LAW SCHOOL or just practicing law. Briefing cases.

I was lucky as the dean of my school gave, as a trick to succeed, the advice to brief every case. I did. Every one except for some dozens where life intervened. What that taught you was a skill. The skill of reading cases. suitandtie and I (and the others with knowledge) will read cases in totally different ways. Not only will suitandtie take FAR longer to get the nugget hidden in the prose, but also, he will not understand all the knowledge the authoring judge was trying to convey. You need to read a lot of cases in general and even more in specific to understand what a properly briefed judge is determining to be true and why. While the law is intended to describe and regularize human interaction, the law is hard. That's why it is a profession. (Not really. I think there are some specific issues like a code of ethics that make it so, but, *I* think the key is that you are constantly learning things. Just saying.)

At the same time, EVERYONE has a cheat sheet. I think I am an okay smart person. I have been involved with accounting and taxes for decades. Yet, I have a "cheat" book by my desk I look at constantly. (Read it fully every year too. Bathroom is a wonderful thing. [Not that anyone needed to know that.]) It's about 1-2 inches thick and is written by those knowledgeable in the field. For me, I call it my cheat book. I have great knowledge about taxation issues and this book gives me authoritative references to different issues I need to research when a client has a problem. I have to know the issues, but once I do this book tells me where to look for more. I cannot believe every attorney here does not have a similar cheat book. Mine costs about $80. How much does your's cost?

When you get to very specific things, I have deeper cheat books. Books that have the outline and provide answers and the cases that guide the answers. I suspect anyone who practices in an area has these as well. These books are expensive and are expensive every year. The law changes. A good law student knows where it might change and argue accordingly. However, I know I get new inserts every year for hundreds of dollars.

That gets me to the point of this thread. Why are we giving coatandtie so much grief? Certainly, he has not disclosed any facts from his suit. That is why all can reasonably answer without practicing law and part of why I have not answered him privately. There was a private offer of the specific case considered. Who wants that? Only the voyeurs. It seems he asks about knowledge in general and it seems, to me, he is getting grief. What up with that? (See how cool I am with phrasing.) I thought that's what we did here. If I am mistaken, please advise so I can temper what I provide.

Sure, coatandtie expresses much ignorance. Is there no way to change that? Or, can the law only be enforced by the priesthood?

 

[TigerD]

It seems he asks about knowledge in general and it seems, to me, he is getting grief. What up with that? (See how cool I am with phrasing.) I thought that's what we did here. If I am mistaken, please advise so I can temper what I provide.

Sure, coatandtie expresses much ignorance. Is there no way to change that? Or, can the law only be enforced by the priesthood?

I am going to offer a guess and a mea culpa. First, suitandtie is getting grief because we know how difficult it is play in the federal pool. On his other thread it was clear what he was looking for and that was something most of us told him was beyond his apparent capabilities - he needed an attorney (or a priest?).

This thread most of us - myself included - took to be a carry over of the previous thread where he seeks a quick fix to a problem that requires a thorough and thoughtful review by an attorney. It is akin to a small child, having been denied a red gumball, coming back to ask for a blue one.

As for my mea culpa: He could go to Amazon and search "Yeazell." There he will find several editions of Yeazell's civ pro casebook and the FRCP, which may also be found online.

With that said, the OP should pay special attention to Rule 11.

TD

 

[tranquility]

I concur, priest is most likely help.

 

[single317dad]

Why are we giving coatandtie so much grief?

I didn't intend to give coatandtie grief (until I got a snarky response) but I did intend to be very direct and even terse in my response. It appeared someone who, from his previous statements here, was in way over his head, was now looking for something comparable to a $15,000 volume of information for $20ish. Of course, there's always a chance some lawyer has recently died and his estate may sell his belongings at a no reserve auction, or that a thrift store somewhere may end up with a giant set of books they don't know what to do with, but if there were $20 items comparable to OP's provided link, they wouldn't sell very many at $15k.

I tried an analogy which apparently didn't work as I intended; that one would not expect to purchase the tools of, say, an auto mechanic's trade for $20. To attempt a complicated auto repair with $20 worth of shop tools will result in more harm than good, resulting in a more expensive trip to the professional mechanic who should have been consulted in the first place.

 

[You Are Guilty]

Having bought my case and hornbooks last century, I couldn't even hazard a guess at how much they cost nowadays. However, given how expensive they were back then, I can't imagine they have actually gotten any cheaper since. Even buying used, every semester was in the thousands. (In hindsight, maybe I should have just taken less demanding electives).

But to borrow an analogy from the car world, when it comes to useful legal texts the options are "reliable, fast and cheap -- pick any two". How anyone, OP included, expects to get the ALR (http://i.imgur.com/s9txnG1.jpg) for around $20 remains a mystery. Maybe one strikes it lucky and finds a set from 1949 at a garage sale (in which case let's hope the current Federal case is not something like civil rights), but barring that, $20 gets you one of those laminated cheat sheets.

I see some of the Nutshell books start int he $40s, but I imagine that's about as cheap as you can get:
http://www.lawbooksforless.com/catalogsearch/advanced/result/?audience=&category=56

 

[tranquility]

http://www.lawbooksforless.com/catalogsearch/advanced/result/?audience=&category=56

Dang. I have to get me some of that.

 

[Ohiogal]

In the general sense, I agree with the others. A few books, especially inexpensive ones, is not going to give a person anything but extremely superficial knowledge about the law. Heck, LAW SCHOOL is not going to give a person anything but an extremely superficial knowledge about the law. While I did not attend the finest school in the land (Think third-tier and then drop it a couple.),

Law school does not teach anyone the law. The best it does it attempt to change someone's way of thinking to how courts view the law. And even that is not a succinct definition. I didn't know the law until I started the practice -- and even then it changes constantly and has various nuances that continuously alter it.

 

[Just Blue]

Tiger, your comment falsely implies that I implied that was my goal. My goals were stated above: I have a gap in my library and I want to fill it. Filling that gap will never allow me to reach your level of superior intellect, although IMO it can't be that superior if you misunderstand what I wrote that extravagantly.

It is also false to assume owning some law books is a binary proposition. I do not seek a $1 million library, nor a $0 library I have now, nor merely a nolo-type library, but something tiny, modest, and useful enough to understand some limited aspects.

If guardians of your craft want to stop people from this, and if law must be kept secret, well screw them and/or you.

This is totally out of line. It also violates the TOS of this site.